Magical Beast Casting

[*coyotesage]

Those creatures that cast as sorcerers do, as far as I know, can always speak and also have hands. Dragons have hands - I can't find where it's explicitly stated, but I also can't find where it's not stated. In pretty much every depiction I've seen, except for when they are presented as being more like magic beasts than the super intelligent and almost humanoid like depiction that you see in most media, they can use their front feet effectively as hands.

I also couldn't find a hard rule on if dragons have hands and if they can wield them with fine manipulation. What you usually read is something to the effect that dragons, being self sufficient in egotistically, would not lower themselves to using common implements. That doesn't mean that they can't, it's just that the typical dragon wouldn't. If anyone can find a rule that explicitly states if dragons have hands or not, that would also be awesome.

So still, even with those guidelines, there is still supposition involved as to whether a magic beast could cast spells from a class as opposed to simply have innate magical abilities they can use. One could just as easily make the case that Magical Beasts can't fulfill the somatic requirements for casting classes without taking Still Spell. I'm not looking for an opinion of if they can or can't, just an official rule that says yes or no on the subject. I wish I still had my copy of the book that converts monsters to player classes, I feel like there might be something there.

[*coyotesage]

And I just found the answer, it's from Savage Species. It's a feat from that book:

Surrogate Spellcasting (Monstrous)
Prerequisite: Wis 13, nonhumanoid, or nonhumanoid like form
Benefit: You complete the verbal and somatic components of spells by substituting vocalizations and gestures appropriate to your shape. You must still have suitable appendages and vocal organs. For example, a giant eagle could substitute screeches and waves of its talons for the normal verbal and somatic components of a spell. You can use any material component or focus you can hold. This feat does not permit the use of magic items by a creature whose form could not ordinarily use them, and you do not get the ability to speak if you cannot already.

I had to look at a scan to find that feat, so I can't link it. Doing a search, it looks like the link from www.dndtools.pw may be down right now (or non-existent, who knows).

[*coyotesage]

And as far as the Dragon question goes, this is supplied by the Draconomicon:

Although a dragonÂ’s front feet are not truly prehensile, a
dragon can grasp objects with its front feet, provided they
are not too small. This grip is not precise enough for tool
use, writing, or wielding a weapon, but a dragon can hold
and carry objects. A dragon also is capable of wielding
magical devices, such as wands, and can complete somatic
components required for the spells it can cast (see Spellcasting,
below). Some dragons are adroit enough to seize
prey in their front claws and carry it aloft.
A dragon can use the “thumbs” on its rear feet to grasp as
well, but the grip is less precise than that of the front feet

RULES: MAGICAL ABILITIES
As noted in the Monster Manual, creatures with innate spellcasting
abilities, such as dragons, do not require material components
to cast their spells. If a spell has a focus, however, a
dragon or other innate spellcaster must have the focus on its
person. Dragons can use the Embed Spell Focus feat to satisfy
this requirement.
Except for not needing consumable material components,
dragons cast their spells in the same way other arcane spellcasters
do. They are subject to arcane spell failure if they wear
armor. (Their own natural armor does not impose an arcane
spell failure chance.) They must provide any verbal and somatic
components the spell has, and they must pay any XP cost the
spell entails. A dragon typically has a cushion of 100 to 600 XP
times its spellcaster level. It can use these XP in spellcasting
without risking the loss of a level.
Also as noted in the Monster Manual, a dragonÂ’s caster level
for its spell-like abilities is equal to its age category or its
sorcerer caster level, whichever is higher.
Although dragons cast spells as sorcerers, they are not
members of the sorcerer class and receive none of that classÂ’s
benefits (except for spellcasting). A dragon gains bonus spells
each day for a high Charisma score. A dragon that becomes a
member of the sorcerer class adds any actual sorcerer levels it
has to its effective sorcerer level to determine its spellcasting
ability, but uses its actual sorcerer level and character level to
determine its other class abilities. For example, an old silver
dragon casts spells as an 11th-level sorcerer. If the dragon
becomes a 1st-level sorcerer, it casts spells as a 12th-level
sorcerer, but its familiar (if it has one) has the abilities of a
familiar with a 1st-level master.
As noted in the Monster Manual, most of a dragonÂ’s spelllike
abilities function as the spells of the same name cast at a
level equal to the dragonÂ’s sorcerer level or its age category,
whichever is higher.
A dragon with the alternate form racial ability is proficient
with all simple weapons. Other kinds of dragons have no
weapon proficiencies unless they actually have levels in a character
class or they use feats to become proficient.

[*Mr_Otyugh]

Regarding dragons hands, all you really need to do is to look at one of the dragon pictures to figure that out :P

Also regarding dragons this is what it says in an overlook: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm

Spells
A dragon knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer of the level indicated in its variety description, gaining bonus spells for a high Charisma score. Some dragons can also cast spells from the cleric list or cleric domain lists as arcane spells.

Spell-Like Abilities
A dragonÂ’s spell-like abilities depend on its age and variety. It gains the abilities indicated for its age plus all previous ones. Its age category or its sorcerer caster level, whichever is higher, is the caster level for these abilities. The save DC is 10 + dragonÂ’s Cha modifier + spell level. All spell-like abilities are usable once per day unless otherwise noted.

I added the spell-like abilities just to make sure people don't think it's confusing it to that.

So yes, its claws are close enough to hands for the purposes of spellcasting.

[*coyotesage]

You say that Mr. O, but there is a HUGE amount of contention on online forums about just how "handy' a dragons front legs really are. I wanted something from an officially printed source, and I found it.

[*Mr_Otyugh]

Some people have way more time at their hands than I do clearly. :P

[*coyotesage]

Well, as far as I know, even human Sorcerers still require somatic components to cast their spells, so I don't know that making the argument that sorcerer levels on magical beasts makes more sense than wizard levels. The only true innate casters are Psions. Sorcery is supposed to be something akin to having innate magic due to having some dragon blood, but their advantage was always specifically to be ale to cast more spells, but with with greater reduced variety.

Still though, I'm looking for hard rules and not speculation or supportive reasoning for why something can be the way it is. Also, I'm not talking about Magical Beasts that have innate casting, but the ability for Magical Beasts to gain caster levels and be able to use spells in that fashion.

Personally, to me it makes no matter at all. It's fantasy, and there is magic, and having to justify why someone can do anything in a magical setting is simply bonkers to me. But this isn't about that, or even trying to tell anyone what to do. When the subject came up, I was curious to know what the rules said about such a thing (because way too many people care about what the rule say, so I like to know these things), and I couldn't find any actual rule for it. There is anecdotal evidence, depending on your point of view, but no hard rule Ive been able to find.

[*DigitalDragoon]

In theory most creatures can learn to cast in their natural forms. There might be some restricting in cast of spells that require complicated focuses and ingredients such a beast might not beable to use without eschew materials.

As written the feat natural spell tends to apply specifically to Druid Wildshape forms. Becauase these are forms not native to the druid as would not without long practice have been part of the learning process for most of their magic.

Edit:
Generally speaking as well the average Magical Beasts would be prevented from using magic through sheer lack of appropriate statistics, not due to some rule banning them from learning due to their physiology.

[*Neethanial]

It's also Savage Species, which is about as useful as Monster Manual II. This "somewhere between 3.0 and 3.5" tends to fill in gaps in some areas while disregarding the errata that is 3.5 system and answering one question while asking two more unrelated ones.

[*coyotesage]

Actually, I was also going to point out that the game (NWN2) was created to use the 3.0 rules system, but I just looked it up, and the wiki claims it was made to use an adapted version of the 3.5 rule set.

:D