Guards

[*Mausman]

While I had some tells with ovarf concerning this, I have to say that I am a big sneaker fan myself.

Sneakers, generally, are in the disadvantage unlike many people think.

If you set someone to hostile, the mechanics are said to add a +10 on top of the d20 roll when doing the spot/listen checks.

I for one, believe this to be true since in this mode, I have spotted some epic sneakers.

Also, listen check also succeeds with sneaker standing still..

IC wise, even if your char has maxed out listen/spot...there's times when you simply don't see/hear the sneaker.

On the other hand, I am agreeing with Cere, in this computer version you get to do stuff as a sneaker that in PnP NEVER would be possible.

Nwn 1 + 2 never had a perfect system, never will have. Some manners to tackle this, is to emote your hide/move silent actions and allow opposed player a spot/listen check.

Personally, I LOVE rp like that. Not for the rolls, but for the simple chance you actually DON'T get away with stuff, a challenge if you will.

But to each his or her own ofcourse :)

[*Grisome]

Don't get me wrong, I love stealth. I played stealth-based chars exclusively 'til I came here. Then I wound up making my mage a sneaky-sneak eventually anyway.
I love stealth. But I hate how some people run around with it.
"I'm going to hide right in front of your face in broad daylight by clicking a hotkey without giving you any chance to respond to do anything to stop me. THEN I'm going to chat you up but you STILL won't be able to see me even while I talk/mock/etc. No, it doesn't break stealth! Ain't it great?"
HiPS is awesome in pve. It can be obnoxious in roleplay if people abuse it.

To be fair though, I've seen cases of someone like, positioning the character behind a wall or something to hide, and the people they're "spying" on end up 'noticing' them because the engine detects them. Even when their char has no line of sight...
So it can be ruined both ways.

[*hunvagy]

Actually, we tried a few things with another sneak in the arena. Unless you break Line of Sight, we could see each other, even when we both were HiPSters. After we got a little distance, and went hiding to attack each other, strangely she couldn't see me, but I spotted her character, though I had a lower spot value. And when we were in party, HiPS worked pretty much as it should, she fading from sight even when we were standing next to each other.

On another point, seeing as most areas are flagged indoors, we only seem to have a few places with real shadows, so technically there wouldn't be much to use for hiding, even for SDs.

But I have to agree with Maus, RPing it against players is a lot more fair then just relying on the game mechanics to be invisible ^_^

As for mobs.. they should know fear <_<

[*cryptc]

Well put Grisome, couldn't agree more.

[*ovarf]

And on a side note to the whole Wisdom thing... Sneaks generally are Dexers, and Hide/MS is a Dex skill. So a maxed out dex-based character is running around with like a +8 to +12 on top of their skill, and that's without any gear adding Hide/MS selectively, or feats used, or buffs like Camouflage, or having a caster pet... etc etc etc.

so buy making out their primary skill to get better at their primary combat tool they become more effective at combat while someone who dose not cast spells would have to sacrifice a non combat stat to balance that out.

I am solidly of the opinion that if you both have maxed skill and counter skill ranks then it should be an even contest as it stands now even a maxed out non magic based spotter cant even spot non magical based sneaks

[*Ceremorph]

The problem is that NWN2 doesn't have the capability to differentiate between the different sorts of "hiding". In PnP, any halfway-competent DM would give major penalties against hidng if a player tried to do the things we take for granted here. "I follow them in their door, then crouch behind their chair in the extremely well-lit room with only one piece of furniture" or "I follow them hidden across the barren desert in broad daylight" would be laughed at and given a hefty penalty, much like quite a few things we take for granted.

If you're truly concerned, however, yes you can get a bonus with a spot helmet, get a friendly caster to give you permanent clairvoyance/clairaudience, and even take feats such as skill focus which will improve your spot. Then just make sure that any time you're standing still, you have detect mode turned on. You won't catch the "holy crap" epic stealth builds with adjusted scores in the 80s, no... but you will have a good chance of seeing many of the "took one level in shadowdancer to kill stuff better" types.

[*Grisome]

When actively listening/spotting, you get your value (Mod+skill) PLUS another d20 against anything in the area. The folks that are doing the sneaking don't get a d20 against anyone trying to find them. Their ability to be sneaky is static

Skimming, but:
I'm positive sneakers get the d20 versus the people looking for them, just as they get a d20 to their roll.
Unless you have actual proof to back it up... then I'm gonna say you're wrong.
I could be, but I don't think so. Just from playing experience.

Still, amplify scrolls/wands/etc make looking for someone easy enough. Assuming you know to be looking.
I think it's pretty even/fair on this particular server.

[*Melancholy_Dreamer]

I've a sneaker with a fairly formidible (but not the highest I've seen) Hide & Move.

I have to agree with the earlier posts - a "dedicated" seeker will nearly always beat a sneaker. By "dedicated" I mean, not only spending the feats and skill points, but having the gear, knowing a few of the tricks and spells to pump up points, and so on. Sneakers already start out at a virtual -20 points since just ONE successful Spot or Listen roll means their undoing.

Also agree++ about flaunting such abilities in public, something she's never done, or only performed when she felt she had to. I always viewed Shadowdancers as being a very secretive society and very guarded about their techniques and lore. if the Lady doesn't get such individuals, I wouldn't be surprised if an assassin does . . . . but, yeah, flaunting HIPS is down there with the dancing shifters we had in NWN-1 :P

To answer the OP's original question, IMO, no, I don't think investing in Spot or Listen is worthless.