Metagaming

[*Strawberry Jam]

non detection spells are good I think, also add non detection to mind blank and most wont have to waste spell choices.

changing detect to a passive effect that just tells you which direction is an undead might be nice.

I know on old NWN worlds they had detect alignment features, but it lead to pvp so they changed it to being very obvious casting it at your target and letting them know you did. I think people are less inclined to if they look like a paranoid jerk publicly for doing so on everyone.

[*Midnight]

I'd prefer to see people with detect undead given a chance to spot a PC undead, not the auto success that they get now.  But if it comes down to just removing the spell altogether and having it only effect NPCs that might be the preferable option. As an auto success in flushing out that someone is undead is marginally worse for RP than cutting down options altogether.

I don't think either situation is ideal though so maybe allowing a save (although that won't stop meta gaming as people will still see you roll the save) or some way to block it may be the better option.

Keeping Detect Undead in the game will limit options as long as it affects PCs. If you add a save it encourages save stacking, if you add some other form of check, playing a concealed undead PC will hand you the unpleasant ultimatum of "be able to automatically succeed this check or come up with another character idea"--I don't like either of these outcomes.

Adding Nondetection, unless you add it via an equippable item, will still limit options. I think limiting a whole character archetype is far more restrictive than removing a first level spell with a very small amount of external use.

Then it would appear we have a solution. I don't think it would be too unreasonable to have non detection put on an item. You can stop detect undead but it might cost you one of those enchantment slots. Rings are quite under utilised, it would hardly be crippling.

[*LingeringTaste]

Some times people seem to unconsciously metagame. Like in the case of change self. When your character is in the form of a average normal human and everyone seems to treat them as they normally would.

[*Neethanial]

The unintentional metagaming is something that can easily be worked though. I think we've all done things like that before. When this happens, it can be squashed rather easily most of the time.
There's a fine line between "Hey, that's kinda meta" and "Hey, I'm judging your rp". Situations like this are best left for DMs to handle so they can explain the situation as a neutral party.

[*Darkrob]

PvP consent is Metagaming

Using the scry to find a party is Metagaming

Knowing you canÂ’t be pickpocketed and carrying 1 million gold pieces is Metagaming

Chatting people up in the Abyss (as you bump into them) is metagaming (especially if theyÂ’re fiends)

Ignoring the fear radious of Liches and such in the Market is Metagaming

Using a large number of the spells and abilities in the game is Metagaiming

Building a new character and running directly to the quests with what is required, or directly to the quick levelling spots that you know about is metagaming.

On and on and on.

Just use your better judgements, folks. Nobody is innocent and clear. You don’t like someone’s RP, simply move along and RP with someone else. Don’t get bent all out of shape because someone is using the tools the game affords. Nothing is ever going to be perfect and you’ll never make anyone happy by turning this into a Hard Core RP server by enforcing loads of anti-metagaming rules. Once you start to strip down the abilities and spells for the purist RP’ers, you’ll alienate the casual RPer and suddenly we’re an ‘elitist’ RP server. Those generally lose populations fast.

[*Love_on_a_Wire]

I do not think detect undead should be removed, it's a legitimate pnp spell that functions in nwn as it does in pnp.  I think maybe some kind of compromise can be reached though, perhaps some kind of counter measure. This from the spell compendium springs to mind.

I do what to clarify that in PnP, 3.5, Detect Undead most certainly does not work how it works in NWN2. In PnP, Detect Undead requires a full three rounds of concentrated focus forward to determine the general location of any undead in a 60 foot cone in front of you, and only then if they are in your line of sight and non-hidden.

In the first round, you can tell that there are undead auras in that cone. In the second round, you can tell how many undead auras are in that cone and the strength of the strongest aura there. In the third round, the relative strength and location of all undead auras in that cone, though if any are out of your line of sight, you only know their general direction.

Only in 1st edition was it an aura. From that point on, it was always a concentrated forward facing spell, either a corridor or a cone, that gave non-exact information and required relative focus.


That being said, if people are that opposed to this favorite homebrew spell being removed, countermeasures are a great alternative. There's dozens. If you want to test whether someone is an undead IC as opposed to OOC, interact with them.

So it would be preferable if it only worked on things in front of you? As I understand it still a sixty foot range in nwn. We could always give it a delayed casting time to simulate three rounds of concentration. It's still going to allow you to spot an undead without a save.

Not the point you are trying to make though I don't think. You are more concerned that it allows undead to be spotted without them having a chance to save it hence my suggestion of some sort of compromise that would allow undead a fighting chance against it.

As for everyone's favourite homebrew spell I beg to differ. Word of Faith and IGMS spring to mind :P

I was really just correcting your statement. That said, yeah. I don't feel like Detect spells offer anything in a persistent world environment.

That said, if we're being precise, only Word of Faith is homebrew and it's just a really strong version of Blasphemy/Holy Word/Word of Chaos/Dictum. IGMS is just Missile Storm with the name Issac. But the difference is that these are spells all with mechanical benefits, while Detect Undead only serves to be really lame. I'm with Mr_O 100% here.

[*Midnight]

I do not think detect undead should be removed, it's a legitimate pnp spell that functions in nwn as it does in pnp.  I think maybe some kind of compromise can be reached though, perhaps some kind of counter measure. This from the spell compendium springs to mind.

I do what to clarify that in PnP, 3.5, Detect Undead most certainly does not work how it works in NWN2. In PnP, Detect Undead requires a full three rounds of concentrated focus forward to determine the general location of any undead in a 60 foot cone in front of you, and only then if they are in your line of sight and non-hidden.

In the first round, you can tell that there are undead auras in that cone. In the second round, you can tell how many undead auras are in that cone and the strength of the strongest aura there. In the third round, the relative strength and location of all undead auras in that cone, though if any are out of your line of sight, you only know their general direction.

Only in 1st edition was it an aura. From that point on, it was always a concentrated forward facing spell, either a corridor or a cone, that gave non-exact information and required relative focus.


That being said, if people are that opposed to this favorite homebrew spell being removed, countermeasures are a great alternative. There's dozens. If you want to test whether someone is an undead IC as opposed to OOC, interact with them.

So it would be preferable if it only worked on things in front of you? As I understand it still a sixty foot range in nwn. We could always give it a delayed casting time to simulate three rounds of concentration. It's still going to allow you to spot an undead without a save.

Not the point you are trying to make though I don't think. You are more concerned that it allows undead to be spotted without them having a chance to save it hence my suggestion of some sort of compromise that would allow undead a fighting chance against it.

As for everyone's favourite homebrew spell I beg to differ. Word of Faith and IGMS spring to mind :P

I was really just correcting your statement. That said, yeah. I don't feel like Detect spells offer anything in a persistent world environment.

That said, if we're being precise, only Word of Faith is homebrew and it's just a really strong version of Blasphemy/Holy Word/Word of Chaos/Dictum. IGMS is just Missile Storm without the Issac. But the difference is that these are spells all with mechanical benefits, while Detect Undead only serves to be really lame. I'm with Mr_O 100% here.

I disagree. Pnp missile storm casts a maximum of 15 missiles doing 1d6 damage each as a level four spell. closer to Issacs lesser missile storm than greater I'd say, granted a little less damage but much closer to that than the 2d6 damage from 20 missiles that you get in the greater missile storm.

Word of faith fills the role taken by blasphemy, word of chaos, dictum and holy word allowing you to use it against all four points on the alignment axis in one spell whilst still being level 7. I think both of these make the nwn versions of the spell much better than the pnp version of the spell. Much more so than the comparison of pnp and nwn detect undead. So I think if you are going to dismiss one as homebrew you should judge the others along the same standards.

You say there is no mechanical advantage to detect undead but I disagree again. Give it a try the next time you are in Nifleheim or Undersigl Lake. It's quite a mechanical advantage to know where the monsters are. So much so rangers have a whole class feature for it.

As I said before I appreciate what you say, it can lead to meta gaming and it is never nice to have your character affected by something that they have no chance of stopping. I agree that something should be done to address that but just getting rid of something as opposed to trying to fix it is not really the way. I'd prefer to see people's options increased as opposed to restricted.

[*Mr_Otyugh]

So it's beneficial against NPC, how about we leave it against NPC only then? Leave any RP between players to be dictated by interaction.

[*Devil's Elysium]

I forgot a pet peeve in my earlier ramblings: players blatantly switching to tells over normal IC say/whisper because they saw someone nearby via the player list. Stealth builds are useless enough without "help" from cliquish childishness.

e: Oh, right. The topic at hand. Word of Faith and IGMS can't be set passively to automatically activate on anything, friendly or otherwise, on your minimap. They also have no effect on RP and affect everything on the server equally. In addition, Clerics and Wizards (and to a lesser extent Favoured Souls and Sorcerers) will always have access to Detect Invisibility with no cost required beyond the already-practically-mandatory Persistent Spell. Must admit, I'm not sure why this comparison is being made here.

At any rate I believe Detect Undead, if it must exist, should be limited to NPCs.

[*Love_on_a_Wire]

You say there is no mechanical advantage to detect undead but I disagree again. Give it a try the next time you are in Nifleheim or Undersigl Lake.  It's quite a mechanical advantage to know where the monsters are.  So much so rangers have a whole class feature for it.

As I said before I appreciate what you say, it can lead to meta gaming and it is never nice to have your character affected by something that they have no chance of stopping. I agree that something should be done to address that but just getting rid of something as opposed to trying to fix it is not really the way.  I'd prefer to see people's options increased as opposed to restricted.

Alright. I apologize if I was a little terse, then. I'm still in a mode where I'm a little defensive due to recent discussions unrelated to this one or yourself, so I shouldn't carry that over into this talk.

You are right. Changing Detect Undead to only detect NPCs would also be a lovely alternative to just removing a spell.