I Bought Some 4e Books

[*Ceremorph]

As someone who has seen the progression of the game from the days of AD&D, my biggest problem with 4e is that it doesn't follow. First edition was a blast for a bunch of junior-high kids who liked tolkien books, had good imaginations, and were more or less nerds and nerdettes. That's why I started playing the game in the first place, and got a good deal of enjoyment from it through my middle teens until I started discovering fun things like driving and parties and nudity. XD However, I don't envision a way where the mostly limited ruleset would have entertained me in my adult years... but I guess I'll never know.

Time moves forward, and nerddom leads to computer use, where the Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale series and Planescape:Torment introduced me to 2nd edition. A more advanced system, still recognizable to the part of me that remembered AD&D, but with new and interesting options, and a fully-fleshed world (Forgotten Realms) far beyond what existed in 1985.

Then, NWN and NWN2 to 3e and 3.5 respectively. The use of skills. A wide assortment of races. Prestige classes. Epic levels. Fantastic new features to expand on things, while simplifying systems such as AC and Attack Bonus to make playing easier.

And then NWN2 pulled me into the PWs. Playing and DMing, yes, but it was toolset that convinced me to dive into the lore and the rules, and only increasing my appreciation for the unbelievably complex but endlessly entertaining thing that was 3.5e, helped greatly by those twin wonders of the internet and the open-source D20 model.

Until 4e came along. Like was said earlier in the thread, it's barely even the same name. It's as if you've spent years playing chess, and suddenly you find yourself being told that the rules of checkers will now apply. I personally have no interest in the 4e system no matter how hard WotC tries to convince the world it's cool. and probably would never be able to throw myself into a 4e-based game the way I have into this one. So... let's all just hope that NWN2 has the same staying power as NWN1 did, shall we?

[*TheFrozenWind]

I'm glad I haven't peaked at the 4e books yet :)

I just recently downloaded most of the 3.5e for free :D I'm so proud.

Also some old planescape books with the 2nd edition rules :P can't remember what THACO is since I haven't played icewind dale or baldurs gate in ages... Ugh nostalgia :P

[*Ceremorph]

THACO = To Hit Armor Class 0, in a system where 10 is naked and -10 is the ultimate in protection. So if your THACO is 12 and you're fighting someone with AC 5, you'd need a 7 to hit.

And people wonder why math nerds liked AD&D...

[*draken57]

THACO OMG! that brings back memories.

[*Cenpuppie]

Well.. the problem is that Wizard of the Coast DID dumb down our beloved PnP to it easier for the even dumber kids.

Authors were forced to kill off chars they spent decades developing.. And quite few authors jumped ship.. I'm not kidding either, authors actually left WoTC over this. I learned that after reading some forums and seeing the famous "departing ways because of creative differences".

Hell Salvator killed off some loved chars and i had to find out why...that's the only reason why i know. As it stands now, i don't read ANY forgotten realms novel based in 4ed.. it all sucks. I'm reading the ol'skool books now.

The consensus online from what i've seen: Wizard of the Coast wanted to make it more appealing to the new skool so they made it dumber..I'm not kidding either. They didn't want the youngins to learn all the frekkin history and lore so they killed everyone.. damn near everyone and put a dumber system in place.. and they call it "starting" new. Now our system is just like every other generic as PnP out there that collects dust on in hobby shops.



Bastards killed Magic the Gathering, now it's Forgotten Realms and D&D's turn.. *sighs*

[*draken57]

it's like when white wolf published there new books. It was like WTF and they killed of the existing world. Having been a LARPer for 2 years i was like damn.

[*The_Tarot]

Yeah, THAC0 was great. *Sarcastic.*

2nd Edition: I enjoyed, despite it's oddities. The system was complex enough to hold interest mechanically, and the source material was wicked sweet.

3rd edition, 3.5, and 3.75 (Also known as Pathfinder.) Was kind enough to replace the THAC0 system with a system that was more fluid, as well as the saving throw system. - Really, Keeping track of specific saves from Wands was a little annoying.

3.5/3.7 provides enough character customization via feats, classes and prestige classes to make it feel like your character is actually evolving , growing as the story progresses in a non-linear fashion. - 4th edition is akin to railroading. "Your a fighter, You'll always be a fighter, You'll never learn magic."

Besides, fighters always complain about being able to do nothing but attack, while magic users can summon celestial superbeings, etc. So, this system allows them to do some other things from what I understand.

There is enough source material in 3.5 where "Fighters" can do plenty of things other than just "attack". NWN2 is a horrible comparison to true 3.5 D&D. You can't charge, You can't sunder. You can't do anything tactically really. - and there are loads of more skills to invest in.

If you want a truely awesome tabletop book with that in mind. Look up Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords. Although some of the abilities are pretty obviously "magical" in nature. (and on the verge of being Japanese Anime insane.) Features given to Fighter types include things like "Stances."

psonic handbook was even better due to they had spell point system going were you cap with level of character not spell.

A level thirty spell vs level 20 means something there...it freak'n hurts. Vs the hard limit spells have in nwn or players handbook

Psionics are the only thing I don't like about 3.5. The Spellpoint system is fine, It is even a variant for Arcane/Divine over spell slots. , but Psionics. . . Over half the spells are direct copies from their Arcane/Divine counterparts.

(Psionic Grease for example. It's description is literally "See Grease")

and just applying Auto-Still, Auto-Silence, and Eschew Materials to them, with cheesy effect.

and all the good spells scale with the level of the Caster level anyway. Some have limits. (Fireball ending it's scaling at level 10) Some don't. See Wings of Flurry (Sorceror only spell from some book, Dragon Magic, I think)

3.5 is like a pizza. There are plenty of topping options out there to customize it to anyone's liking.

[*Rynaga]

It boils down to one thing.

Kids these days are dumber than they used to be. I'm not being mean or cynical.

I'm in my second year of high school starting next year, and as actual statistical values which the newspaper (which I was on last year due to taking 2 HS classes in 8th grade) the amount of F's and C's (we don't use D's out here) has risen 70% in the last 10 years with 42% of them from the last 4 years! 4 years!

Also, the whole texting fad that our country is in (America that is, for you non Americans of which I wish I was -_-) is actually causing kids to do actual assignments in 'text speak' (my 3rd elective was being a TA for an English teacher. Which turned into helping him grade)

We also want instant gratification. We don't wanna learn how to do something, we just wanna be able to instantly get into something and have fun. That's what 4.0e did to D&D, they made it so you don't have to think to play, you just instantly get to smash stuff.

One problem with that, D&D is STILL a 'nerds game' and 'nerds' (like me) tend to ENJOY learning rules and then HORRIBLY AND GROTESQUELY breaking them. Unlike FPS-Kiddies we don't mind having to think up strategies more advanced than 'u cover dat door i get dis 1. lololololololol nubz won no notin.'

Hell, I enjoyed 3.5e more at times just reading through the books and seeing new content than I did using it in an actual campaign. Why? I liked to know I had choices.



Now then, it's 1 in the morning so I should get to bed. Sorry if this post was illogical. And I don't mean to offend anyone who likes FPS games.

[*Synyster Spirit]

Covering doors is a legitimate strategy!

[*hunvagy]

IMO DnD4 is nothing but a streamlined and dumbed down WoW clone on paper. Hell, even the D20 versions of WoW was better. I convinced myself to go through the rist PHB of 4e, but I think I gave up somewhere after the races. WotC streamlined both this and MtG, and both are being worked down into mainstream crap. But that is what the audience wants these days it seems.

Though if at least there are a couple of sensible Campaign Settings, and one can find anything in that book that can be used for storytelling, and not only combat related skills and stuff, it might be worth a try. But for now, I just stay with my 3.5 source books. :)