Sure Is Quiet!

[*Graglarthedumb]

Speaking from a second edition DM perspective of Planescape, the lack of faction interaction in Sigil seems foreign like a bizarro sort of Sigil. The factions were a huge plot devise, especially for the railroad modules (one path adventures). Every Planescape module has a section specifically denoting the factions probable motives for that adventure, whether they take place in or out of Sigil. They were basically omnipresent in Sigil. Their fingers in EVERY pie. For as little as I've played I only saw mention of them in the OOC Room and talking to a handful of NPCs.

In 2nd, Planar characters were required to be in a faction, and primes only excluded because it be strange for them to appear in the Outer Planes and sudden be apart of one. I do recall reading a strong recommendation in some book (possibly Planescape Campaign Setting) that as soon as possible they should be pressured (to say it crudely) into one. Mostly because it was helpful for the DM but it also fleshed out the characters, gave them motivations and struggles beyond themselves, and lead to some interesting inter-group role play.

I personally would despise being forced into a faction (pick one of 15 NOW!) and prefer giving players the option personally. However factions right now in your world have zero presence, in a world where they should be the dominating presence. I can see it from the other perspective, not wanting to force a random person who just wants to role play into reading all that lore, and I agree it shouldn't be that heavy for new players.



So a simple solution that might deal with multiple problems:

---Summarize the Factions Philosophy. One line. Harmonium: If everything's on the same page then everything's in harmony, Either flip to our page or we'll tear all yours out.

---Make it so Factions have gear for high levels. (A solution to a problem some other people brought up earlier.)

---Give them some boon for joining up like 2nd had (Ex: Originally Harmonium got like a dominate or charm spell once a week...)

---Certain portals only available to members which give better combative positioning or ease of access to a plane. Perhaps make it free for members, expensive otherwise.

---Sensible factions bonuses (outside Roleplaying) like a merchant for Indeps who has a higher buy price. Fated have a 5% discount on land purchases (Just property space.)

---Close off Faction Headquarters to non-members outside of specific events which demand otherwise.

Basically give people who don't NEED to join a reason to join and make it easy for them to do so.





Though it also feels weird to me, the factions don't need to constantly be at each others necks... or ever be so. You could easily design most adventures (or I guess "events") to have faction involvement, even if it's just a Hardhead telling them their needed as Backup at some location, on the way there they witness <Hook for adventure>. So long as it feels like they're present even if only by name it'll be significant in making the world feel more real, that there are other things happening out there. (As well as bringing a prominent part of Planescape to light.)

The Red Death needs you to hunt down this guy. The Ciphers need an intermediate for this meeting. The Fated needs some taxes collected. Situations where a high-up needs some leg work, doing what that faction does, and it's the PC's time up or a large bit for a chance at advancement.



The main advantage from a DM perspective was for railroading, You spend twenty hours making a scenario drop the hook and the PCs are like "I don't care about you, little girl". Then Ol' Darkwood says you're going to that mine, and you do that! It was an easy ram, the characters were somewhat invested in their factions. Most players once anything higher than a namers asks or demands they do it do it will for RP reasons. Not always so for min-maxers but a creative DM makes do *Grins mischievously* (Or doesn't play with those types.)

However it had almost infinite potential for adve... events... and helped hash them out. Thus, I think the factions should constantly be reaching out for the upper hand by pushing down on the others. Their main antagonists are the other factions after all. However 2nd edition had, say, 5 people who were almost always present during the universes passing of time. Then again, there was generally only one DM... Though even with multiple DMs Logistic would get confused at best... Maybe assign specific DMs to head adventures for specific factions and only allowing one PC conflict adventure a day or week or month even to allow enough time for information transfer and planning of subsequent adventures.




Concerning the Lady: The slags (and other events in some Planescape modules) shows clear that the Lady's fine to let it rock to near destruction; holes and "We're sinking captain!". Murder anyone, destroy anything, even kill a dabus or two -though that ends in fatalities by different means- and a berk'll see scant trace of her. Her lines are simple and the addle-coves what tip them turn petitioner or get lost in a cage personally fitted.



Concerning faction alliances: I think the books have it generically set this way:
Guvners, Hardheads, Red Death
Defilers, Godsmen
Bleakers, Sinkers, Dustmen
Signers, Sensates
Chaosmen, Anarchist
Fated, Indeps

Ciphers don't have anything set, and no faction is overtly hostile to them.

Though those are all mutable, even the triad of law (though that ones obviously the most stable). In In general though they've all pretty solid foundations, similar beliefs.




Oh and use should definitely throw... a bit of garnish to the blood who talks the nines. A bone-box moving in the ways of cage deserves an extra helping of the XP pie. ...Just my thoughts.

[*DigitalDragoon]

I would like to point out for those whinging about it. The DMs go out of their way to try and involve factions and faction politics, but more often then not you seem people blowing a gasket over any level of boat rocking that does not involve complete and total victory over other group of players...no what how anyone handled anything.

Faction business does not have to equal pvp.

[*Mausman]

My two cents?

There is no grandfathered OP equipment. That cake, is a lie. Even on Kelth I do not have a single item, be it shop inventory, nor gear used, that is grandfathered.

All his things, either are hard-earned RP rewards over the years, or, gained as we all gain items.

I am rather certain this goes for most old characters.


Then, "Legacy" races? had a way higher ECL than the more powerful updates now have, if anything, you would be gimping yourself by sticking to the old pre-overhaul vampire, for example. Save for maybe the ridiculous in-between version which could go nonsense vampire mode monk style.

It goes without saying I am not pro-wipe. If it happens, players should certainly be allowed to take their earned possessions to that character, because frankly? I have yet to see the first game-breaking item.


----------------------------

Mind, I am responding as a player here. In general, I only wish to see a happy community that has fun in rp and enjoys their stay.


I am always open for a back and forth about views.

[*KittyEmpress]

My biggest reason for playing on other servers lately is pretty simple: RP matters more there. And I mean this in a ton of ways, and a lot of them are in fact mechanical.

A. RP xp - on Sigil, I will rp for 4 hours, then go out to grind, and be out of my bonus xp within 20 minutes. For that four hours it at least feels like I'm maybe getting 1500 RP xp. Meanwhile the server I am currently playing on gives ticks about every 10-20 minutes of 400 xp, for rp (scaling to your level). I can actually level a character mostly via rp. I get more xp just from rp ticks over the course of an hour than I do from a 2-3 hour event on here. This ties into point B.

B. DM Equipment - so this is always a thing that makes people upset, but I actually like being able to earn special swords and cool armors and stuff on servers, over the course of events. Knowing that my organizing a dig to an ancient dwarven tomb, braving the traps and ghosts and etc not only might, but probably will net me and my group a cool custom axe and some armor and maybe a helmet is a super big motivator to get people out there looking for plots. Baldurs Gate at its peak had a ton of not balanced DM items. Then it very closely restricted giving out items so no one could gain items from DMs. Following closely after that, random adventure events stopped happening, people's characters stopped caring about looting old ruins or what not, and everyone just grinded. Recently they rescinded this rule, though it's still more closely monitored than the no restrictions of the past - and already you can see players more motivated to get out there and get the prominence and rp power to get events going again.

C. Housing - Every house on the server I play on is a big deal. If you got a custom player area that's a huge deal. You earn them through consistently rping well, being involved in events, getting involved in the various factions of the server, and becoming an actual important person. It's treated as something noteworthy that sets you aside from people who haven't worked that hard yet. Meanwhile Sigil has a hundred (hyperbole) abandoned houses whose players grinded to get a house and then left the server because they didn't actually establish a fun character. These houses clog up the maps, and just look sad. Having a house isn't a badge of pride anymore, it's just a badge of being willing to grind and sell things as a player merchant.

D. Faction involvement - On the other server, if you aren't part of a faction you are intentionally gimping yourself. They have resources, they have equipment, they have political power, and by rising through the ranks you can have end game mechanical power without ever having to grind. It encourages people to rp not only as parts of factions, but as champions of their faction. Sigil, meanwhile, has been constantly saying it never wants to add mechanical incentives to being part of a faction. And so no one is. Call me a cynic, but as I've noted above - a lot of people will be a lot more interested in things if it gets them some notable bonus.

E. Impact and agency - Events on other servers have big impact that the players can alter. If the players want to collapse a cave instead of fight an avatar of the gods of goblins, they can, and the story will adapt with them and change with them. If players want to run events where they run up into trouble with important people, they can keep on trucking and maybe get over to the other side looking better and changing the setting a bit. Even big important plot lines have player input, and multiple times DMs have gone 'huh, not how I expected' and still ran with it. Here, events are either super low key and barely give the players any importance, or they are super rail roady and tied to what the staff wants to do and have the server be (bazaar explosions). I never felt like I was doing something important and able to do something besides follow a set path, in a Sigil event.




On Sigil, I can join an event, go out and solve a murder over the course of 4 hours, find out it's tied to a larger plot, and.maybe make some friendships. I'll get maybe 2000 xp out of it total, spread across multiple days and a need to grind. Or, I can spend 4 hours grinding, get 15 levels, have enough money to buy top end gear, and be super useful mechanically. On Sigil you do rp in addition to your mechanical leveling experience.

On other servers, I can join an event, go out and solve a murder over the course of 4 hours, find out it's a larger plot, find that the murderers dagger is an enchanted item j can use, track down and raid his resources as I find he's an assassin (gaining thousands of gold), and more, all while getting a good 6-7k xp for 4 hours of rp. On this server, I get my leveling experience from my rp.

[*phantomhermit]

Been seriously considering leaving Sigil myself for many of the reasons mentioned above.

also:

No rewards for RP = no meaningful RP = no one to RP with = current state of server

Am all for the "I pulled the sword from the stone" special items for people who RP well and meaningfully, even if it is not ~my~ sword from the stone.

I do not want to feel "specially treated" . . . but if everyone is "specially treated" based on merit and rp instead of maze grinding . . . I think both the community and the single player feeling of accomplishment will rise.

Enrich the lives of those around you, and yours, in turn, will benefit as well. Surround yourself with happiness and you will find it yourself. Etc.

Will stop there for now to see where this (in my opinion) useless (as in, wont accomplish jack) thread goes.

[*Darker_Thought]

(1.) I think a more radical plotline for ScoD should be made. Something that drastically could change parts of the servers environment. A larger plot where players know that they oculd be in making a change.

Some fresh air to the server. Take a leap of faith, disturb the status Quo for awhile and make ScoD atleast for awhile a place of adventure and danger. I know the Lady doesn't allow any harm to come to SCoD so come up with an event to circumvent that.

Have the DMs/EMs gather on making a large and several smal mini events around a plotline and catch peoples attention. Involve private guilds and factions in diffrent scales and do something crazy.

Involve diffrent players than can add to this plotline through PLayer Spread rp. Work together making this not just a DM event and not just a Player event but both. One side working as the antagonists basis or third neutral party that is affected and the protagonists which are most of the server population.

Again this is just my personal suggestion. So many times we have veterans speaking of "oh you remember that large plot that was so awsome around 2010???", I think we were bolder then than we are now. Do something unexpected, dramatic and show that Sigil City of doors has yet alot of adventure to offer :)

(2.)
Complete Item overhaul + Lvl restrictions on items (If they dont already exist). No more super gear. If needed maybe even clear the character banks and start over. I know I know...Not a popular decision... But we have gotten way to comfortble and I remember being happier and more exited without the comfort ive grown into... And thats comming from one of Sigils oldest richest merchant refering to a Item cleanup! :P

[*Whitefly]

Maybe a good way to handle the factions is alliances.

We know the lobsters + stabby justice people + judges = triad of douche, and they tend to see a lot of play as a result, so maybe the other factions should have a similar degree of... groupiness.

[*MimiFearthegn]

We know the lobsters + stabby justice people + judges = triad of douche, and they tend to see a lot of play as a result, so maybe the other factions should have a similar degree of... groupiness.

We have thrown around ideas on how to group the factions into multiple triads. The problem is those sticky factions in the middle do not group into 3's very effectively. However! There are a few other notable alliances. They, like the Triad, do enable players in them to be groupy.

Of course, alliances are not all sunshine and roses. We have multiple times run into situations where the players in factions didn't really want to cooperate, or they just weren't remotely on the same page. Even the Triad alliance is rocky most days.

But here's a couple of faction alliances off the top of my head -

Godsmen + Athar - their factols are buddies, and they are philosophically aligned currently. Go forth and enlighten the city.

Sensates + Signers - they unite over individualism, and against those depressing Bleakers.

Doomguard + Bleakers + Dustmen - the Triad of Chaos. The DM team has gone out of its way in the past to make this group stick together NPC-wise, so . . . if you're in one of these factions please do be sticky.

Of course, in practice, I feel like the vast majority of the "neutral" factions - Ciphers, Signers, Sensates, Godsmen, and to an extent, Indeps - have a really easy time mingling and doing stuff together. Fated are in a bit of a bind because. . they tax people. . but they can hang out with the Guvners and MK. Xaositects can hang out with the Triad of Chaos if they feel very grim, or anyone else who is chaotic leaning if they're more happy-go-lucky. And so on . . .

[*orcy11]

yes I think we are way too divided I have not been in any sort of ongoing event forever the last time I was in a event that took some time up was when dm slimydoom ran the cormyr one and lately I been feeling I should just give up and go over to BG I feel like its waste of time standing around in character with nothing to contribute when people just do not want to include you because of a b and so on and I think that sort of rp is the reason why the player base dropped of course people are going to leave when they can't do anything for any sort of story driven plot.

[*rapsam2003]

Well, a lot of folks just needed a break, really. I took one and have been playing the new Mass Effect game. But there's always the opportunity for new plots, just gotta step up and think of one.

Edit: By the way, stand by, but I'm gonna think of a plot for some more neutral-ish characters. Probably a group deal, nothing super long, but I'd like to be able to, for instance, stuff some folks like orcy11's Rexxer could have the opportunity to join. So, please stick around. Depends on my work schedule as to when I can actually run it, and I need to run it by Mimi, of course.