A bit of Fussing

[*Marek Ovilion]

Well, it's either we have it running on Warlock Buddy bio, or we just keep spamming it through casts, which honestly isn't a problem for us to do either. It doesn't work in combat after x amount of rounds unless we recast it. Basically that's like saying the whole of warlock class is overpowered really, since we can recast our spells over and over. Yet on the other hand, we get less spells than even sorcerers by far. I mean we trade out one thing for another.

I've seen melee guys hit for 140 on the server consistently over and over with crits, doing 5 attacks in a round. I get one attack per round with my eldritch blast that might hit for 170 if I'm lucky at my level, most times it pops around 70-100...with again, one attack per round. Sure it hits multiple targets but if I get into a PvP situation, I'm screwed.

So honestly, my response to this post is...why is it over-powered? If someone's not RPing the ability properly or explaining why they have it running at the time. I just see it as botched RP. Sure I've had it running without remembering to turn it off a few times, but...I don't feel it's overpowered. That's like saying "Get rid of persisted haste, or monk speed, etc."

(Which to note, my monk moves about a quarter faster than my hasted warlock and my monk's only level 6)

[*Aidelynn]

This is probably a good time to bring this up (and it's not meant to be directed at anyone in particular): the "Stormwind Fallacy" is named after someone who described in detail why "the idea that building your character to be mechanically optimal means you're roleplaying poorly, or that building your character to be mechanically suboptimal means you're roleplaying well" does not make sense.


[Argument deleted]

This is an interesting argument.

Here is why it is wrong, in my opinion.

The "build optimization" takes a goal build in mind and RPs towards it. This is not a character growing organically out of RP experience. It is doing things IC while having in one's mind, "I am going to take feat X at level 21," even while the character is level 3.

Deri has never summoned her familiar. Why? She doesn't have one IC. She may have it on her "character sheet", but she has never gone through the process of finding and binding one IC.

Abby wrote:

I like the general opinions here. Ive been on servers where people were hostile in opposing the idea that someone ought to RP whats on their sheet. Ive always believed that you can take what you want, but you ought to RP what you take.

My personal feeling is that this is the converse of what is true. You ought to take what you RP. And if you have not RPed it, you shouldn't take it. This includes levels, by the way. Why should crawling through the sewers killing goblins make your connection closer to your god, for instance?

Recently, I had some question in my mind as to how to level Deri. The question was not, "What feat will allow Deri to be most powerful at level x?" The question was, "Who is Deri? Is she a scholar? Is she a budding necromancer? Is she actually a burgeoning swordswoman?" (In truth, exactly half of her IC training has been casting-related, and half has been swordplay.) Who is the chracter that I am roleplaying? Not...what was I planning on her becoming when I was devising her "build", but who is the character her experiences have caused her to grow into?

These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's gameplay. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Roleplaying deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else...
Claiming that an optimizer cannot roleplay (or is participating in a playstyle that isn't supportive of roleplaying) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.

This is the entire crux of the author's argument, and what it says is this, "If I am staying in character, I am RPing my character. The build is divorced from RP because they are two 'different aspects of...gameplay'." In effect, "There is no need to RP my character sheet" since they are two different aspects of the game.

If you accept that RP and your character sheet are unrelated to one another, then the author is right, it is a fallacy. I believe, however, that the two are not unrelated, and that this is really no more than a thinly-veiled justification for powergaming, or, if you find that word distasteful, optimization.

They go hand-in-hand in this sort of game. Deal with it. And in the name of all that is good and holy, stop committing the Stormwind Fallacy in the meantime.

It is only a fallacy if it is false. Much as I hate to disagree with you, pel, this is an argument that offers exactly one "proof" and that proof is false. Your RP is not divorced from your character sheet, and this argument is spurious.

Moreover, I see no real need for it to go hand in hand. Again, this is my opinion, but if you want to engage in powergaming, there are more than enough servers for that. If you want to play on an RP server, I feel like your character ought to grow from that RP.

This is one player's opinion.

*********************


On a related note, the devs have said that they do not plan on nerfing any classes, spells, or abilities. I approve of this. There are a lot of reasons that I feel this way, but the main one is this: it doesn't really matter.

What I personally would like to see nerfed is grind XP and drops. There is such a gap between the grinders and the RPers in that respect that it is remarkable. And while I am sure that there are good and proper IC reasons why some people spend an hour or two daily soloing the ice plane or the Abyss, I have to cynically wonder why your RP depends so much upon your spending time with no other characters.

I would say that your RP does not depend on it. Your build does. In that case, using that as RP justification for grinding is akin to saying, "My RP depends upon me not RPing," or alternately, "I do not RP for RP reasons." This can be shortened to, "Not p; therefore p." This is a fallacy, and not merely a matter of opinion.

--Aide

[*[<3]]

Just make sure people rp what's on their character sheet and actualy rp any detriments and disadvantages they have imposed upon themselves while focusing on only certain aspects of their powerbuild. 'nough said.

Oh wait ... this can be said about that other thread closeby as well ... :lol:

[*pelhikano]

This is an interesting argument.

Here is why it is wrong, in my opinion.

Apparently that original argument lead to 5 offspring thread and thousands upon thousands of replies discussing if it's wrong or not, and possibly someone had a reply to why your own counter-argument is wrong as well, but maybe let's not get into that here.

All I wanted to say that *I* myself definitely think that "the idea that building your character to be mechanically optimal means you're roleplaying poorly, or that building your character to be mechanically suboptimal means you're roleplaying well" does not make sense. From my point of view, if a player wants to make his (optimized) build first and then make up the story later (because that's how I do it just about always), they can do so without fearing that they won't get drawn into (my) DM events or such for "being too powerful", and on the other hand nobody should expect their intentionally flawed build will get preferential treatment (from me).

As for relative power and calls of nerfing things because they seem too powerful to a player: we are always glad to hear of obvious bugs that we might be able to fix, and also of exploits that make fighting too easy (we already fixed a couple of those loopholes), but we will not remove abilities that work as described (and with the help of the buddy's semi-permanent warlock haste does work as described).

[*Mr_Otyugh]

I'll just keep it simple for myself :P roleplay my character, as long as one doesn't go jerk on about that, it works just fine.

[*Tildryn]

This is the entire crux of the author's argument, and what it says is this, "If I am staying in character, I am RPing my character.  The build is divorced from RP because they are two 'different aspects of...gameplay'."  In effect, "There is no need to RP my character sheet" since they are two different aspects of the game.

If you accept that RP and your character sheet are unrelated to one another, then the author is right, it is a fallacy.  I believe, however, that the two are not unrelated, and that this is really no more than a thinly-veiled justification for powergaming, or, if you find that word distasteful, optimization.

Actually, you're making a bit of a straw man fallacy there. The Stormwind Fallacy at no point says that you don't have to RP what's on your character sheet - or anything close to it. What it says are two different concepts are characteristics of the player - the ability to synergize the available abilities within the game system, and the ability to roleplay their character.

So, your own argument against it is based on something it has never said - it never, ever says that your RP and your character sheet are unrelated to one another.

As a counterpoint, I posit this; A pre-defined build based on what a character fundamentally is and will become because of the very essence of that character's being, is no more or less superior in terms of 'roleplay' quality than one who is begun with no direction and a scattershot level-by-level stream-of-consciousness approach.

As for only taking levels and feats and skills related to what you've been doing in that level to gain the experience, going by that logic none of us should ever be taking the social skills considering that using those doesn't give experience. :P

[*Dedic8ed]

I think it also is worthwhile to make the distinction between "optimization" and "min/max powergaming". It's one thing to make your character viable for the possibility of combat, and quite another to sit down and calculate damage per round as you map out every little bit of your tiefling uber-rogue who somehow manages to be described as "beautiful and alluring" with a charisma of 4.

To take a relevant example, while playing elsewhere I envisioned a character who was a sorceress focused on summonning, specifically on binding and controlling demons and devils. This character was relatively simple to make, just making certain to spend my feats on things like Augment Summonning and GSF/GSP, while choosing Planar Ally, Dismissal and the like as part of my extremely limited repetoire of spells. However, what this resulted in was a character who, even at epic levels, could not even walk through an area designed for L10-15 characters without dying unless she wound up drinking an invisibility potion. Thus, when I had a chance to relevel her I did so with eldritch knight levels and making sure to take missile swarms. Now... when in a group, she would hang back, summon a fiend to to her dirty work for her, run from potential combat situations, and the like.... much as the character I was RPing would, even if she WAS capable of raining death and fire from above. Why? Because that was the character I envisioned, yet I did not find myself as instantly dead fighting anything but the weakest monsters. Of course, it's also relevant that no PvP was happenning there except in one DM-run situation... but even there, rather than bombarding my player-controlled enemy with bigbys and missile swarms, I RP'd a creative PnP-style use of an Epic Gate spell (which the DM was nice enough to allow).

So with that said, my personal opinion about "RPing to the character sheet" would be that unlike in PnP, that sheet is not and cannot be the end-all of what my character is... so long as I follow two simple rules. Firstly, don't ascribe any capabilities to my characters that the stat sheet doesn't support (If I don't have at least some conjuration-specific feats, I can hardly play the character as obsessed with summoning), and secondly, don't use things that might BE on the stat sheet that don't fit the ongoing RP of my character while in RP-related activities.

And there's my first post on this forum. Damn, I must love to type.

[*Theorum Of Neutrality]

...the humble bard that is almost impossible to kill at epic levels...

Gettin' there... One step at a time.

[*Aidelynn]

*Hugs Dedi*

Nice to see you here, hun. I think you will like it.

Actually, you're making a bit of a straw man fallacy there. The Stormwind Fallacy at no point says that you don't have to RP what's on your character sheet - or anything close to it. What it says are two different concepts are characteristics of the player - the ability to synergize the available abilities within the game system, and the ability to roleplay their character.

My argument is a bit of a straw man. But, this is Stormwind's argument when boiled down to thesis and proof:

Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game...Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's gameplay.

That is a direct quote. In other words, doing one (roleplay) has no impact upon the other (building) because they do not rely upon one another. From the tone of your response, it sounds to me like you think that they are interrelated, which is precisely my point.

Tildryn said:

So, your own argument against it is based on something it has never said - it never, ever says that your RP and your character sheet are unrelated to one another.

Again, here is the summary of the statement:

Doing one in a game does not...infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game...[because] these two elements rely on different aspects of... gameplay.

The implication is that they rely on two aspects of gameplay that are independent of one another. The author's point is that one has nothing to do with the other and that therefore there is no de facto reason why one should say that "Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa."

You may note that I did not actually comment on whether I believe that, "Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa." As it happens, I think the author may be correct in his assertion. His argument, however, is wrong, because it relies upon a "proof" that is false: the notion that build and roleplay are somehow completely independent of one another.

As a counterpoint, I posit this; A pre-defined build based on what a character fundamentally is and will become because of the very essence of that character's being, is no more or less superior in terms of 'roleplay' quality than one who is begun with no direction and a scattershot level-by-level stream-of-consciousness approach. [Emphasis added by Aidelynn]

At no point did I say that either was superior. That is a value judgement. What I said is that the argument is wrong because it relies upon a single proof which itself is false. I also said that my personal opinion is that a character ought to grow from her experiences.

Quoting Tildryn:

As for only taking levels and feats and skills related to what you've been doing in that level to gain the experience, going by that logic none of us should ever be taking the social skills considering that using those doesn't give experience. :P

This is a separate issue, and it is why I personally would like to see XP from killing things dramatically scaled back and RP XP increased and divorced completely from combat: because I think that there is some assumption that one's PC is only learning (gaining experience) from things that earn her XP.

Stated another way, I would like to thnk that a primer would earn quite a bit more "life experience" from having his first conversation with a githzerai than he would from killing his 45th rat, 100th goblin, or 50th treant. Moreover, I think that convincing someone not to mug you, intimidating someone into leaving your friend alone, or bluffing the annoying gnome into running blindly into a portal would all justify spending points on those skills, even if no one happens to award your character any XP for doing so.

On another level, I also think that when levelling through combat is so easy relative to levelling through RP, it subtly directs people to level their characters based upon what will make combat easiest. In other words, the player gets put into a position where he must choose between what might make "RP sense" and what will prevent him from being killed again and again in combat, thus allowing him to level and pick up trinkets. This results in people being directed towards "optimization" rather than where RP might lead. (Which is really the same point that Dedic8ed was making when she talked about taking EK levels and Missile Storms.)

To me, this is exactly where Stormwind's argument breaks down. Stormwind would have you believe that "optimizing" your character to be effective (most typically in combat, since that is really what we are talkling about) has nothing to do with your RP since they are "different aspects of a player's gameplay."

Finally, I do not wish to be inflammatory, and I apologize if it feels like I am being so. Stormwind claims that optimizing one's characters mechanically does not de facto mean that said player cannot also roleplay. This is true. However, I maintain that claiming that build and roleplay are independent of one another is simply untrue. I would go a step further and say that planning out a character's build is like saying that the player knows from the outset what that character's life experiences are going to be, and how they are going to shape that character. This is my opinion and is not offered as a logical proof as Stormwind's argument was.

[*Mr_Otyugh]

Quoting Tildryn:

As for only taking levels and feats and skills related to what you've been doing in that level to gain the experience, going by that logic none of us should ever be taking the social skills considering that using those doesn't give experience. :P

This is a separate issue, and it is why I personally would like to see XP from killing things dramatically scaled back and RP XP increased and divorced completely from combat: because I think that there is some assumption that one's PC is only learning (gaining experience) from things that earn her XP.

Stated another way, I would like to thnk that a primer would earn quite a bit more "life experience" from having his first conversation with a githzerai than he would from killing his 45th rat, 100th goblin, or 50th treant. Moreover, I think that convincing someone not to mug you, intimidating someone into leaving your friend alone, or bluffing the annoying gnome into running blindly into a portal would all justify spending points on those skills, even if no one happens to award your character any XP for doing so.

Well, people will disagree with my following statement (which is my opinions) to a degree no doubt, but I'll say it anyway...

Conversation does infact reward you (granted, not directly), In Character conversation adds to your monster experience pool which is handed out when you do kill a monster by granting double experience.

As for rewarding experience for roleplay, considering what does gaining experience do to your character in mechanical level, it effectively does this: Makes your character better at fighting. :that is of course because in the very essence, DnD is designed for "killing monsters" (and NWN 2 even more so), majorities of systems are based upon those, because roleplay in itself doesn't require many actual systems as it comes from the player. Because levels makes your character inevitably better at fighting, it is logical your character does fighting or physical/mental training that increases their combat capabilities as well.

While logical systems for physical and mental training rewarding experience systems would be nice (such as mages learning through studying/practising arcane arts - fighters through sparring and sleeping with their swords - priests through living deeper through their religion - rogues for robbing and scouting stuff - and so forth), they aren't exactly simplest systems to make and making system like that for only single class(types) would be unfair for others.


--- Do I say it discourages roleplay? You gain more experience for in character conversation and thus in general reward you for roleplaying, although you do still have to kill monsters/handle quests to gain levels (and become better at killing even further).

Now roleplay needs to be encouraged further definitely, and that from my experience cannot be increased much with any game mechanical system since the roleplay comes from the player, all in game mechanics merely can be used as tools or inspiration. And I am working on that department more, but I have plenty to do so all those things won't pop up in same day or same week ;)