Are Player Characters Exceptional?

*FiveWhats
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Posted by *FiveWhats »


Miraie,Sep 9 2015 wrote:I also have a massive problem with paladins killing people simply because they are evil, but that is a flaw within the system more than anything else. If it pings, I smites. Evil-dar ho!
I don't think I've ever had a DM make it that black and white. I mean, yes, good and evil are pretty clearly defined in D&D but there's usually at least a little more nuance to it than that. Part of the fun of playing a paladin is staying true to their/their deity's code while doing good in a way you as a player character see fit. If you reduce the class to nothing more than a smitebot with no free will it becomes a thoroughly uninteresting character to play as a player.

If you're going purely by the book, it works pretty well for something like a dungeon crawl (Detect Evil. Cleave and Smite). Otherwise it's so limiting from a roleplaying perspective I'm not sure why someone would even bother aside from class mechanics.
*Sinlinara
Posts: 528
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Posted by *Sinlinara »


Miraie,Sep 10 2015 wrote: I also have a massive problem with paladins killing people simply because they are evil, but that is a flaw within the system more than anything else. If it pings, I smites. Evil-dar ho!
It's something of a lengthy read but I believe this is relevant and I highly recommend it, even if it does look at things from an Eberron perspective.
*MimiFearthegn
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Posted by *MimiFearthegn »


Miraie,Sep 10 2015 wrote: I also have a massive problem with paladins killing people simply because they are evil, but that is a flaw within the system more than anything else. If it pings, I smites. Evil-dar ho!
. . . not really. Paladins get gifts to fight evil, and are supposed to use them wisely. There's no god of "you must kill everything that glows evil." Depending on your setting and how the game is being run, you couldn't function like that. As the link Sinlinara posted points out, there's every reason to believe there's evil people out there who you really have no good excuse to smite - in that case, smiting would be taking an innocent life. The paladin would be condemned for it.

Paladins aren't stupid or lacking free will. They just have principles.
*Miraie
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Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Posted by *Miraie »


It was an interesting read. Thank you. I've listed some good bits and observations below:
wrote: However, in my home games I’ve always preferred to challenge the players to think about their actions – to have things be less clear-cut than “We’re good, they’re evil, beating them up is the right thing to do.” From the start, film noir was called out as a major influence of Eberron, and a noir story relies on a certain level of moral ambiguity and shades of gray. It shouldn’t always be easy to decide who the villain is in a scenario… or if killing the villain will solve a problem.
This is also something I would like to promote. I like scenarios where both (or more) parties are in the wrong. Whom will you support? Which bad choice will you make?
wrote:Alignment is a spectrum. Round up ten “evil” people and you’ll find that their behavior and histories are radically different.
The alignment notions seem sensible here. It's a reason enough to read the article if you're interested in discussing how alignments could work. One might even find some character ideas here. Even if a paladin detects that someone is evil, they might actually do more harm than good by killing that person. I am all for that kind of complexity. Paladins who rely on their evildar are thus, in my opinion, committed to a fatal flaw that might become their undoing.
wrote: Expanding on this: one of the rulers of the Five Nations is a good-aligned monarch who seeks to restart the Last War. Another is an evil leader who seeks peace. Restarting the war will result in the deaths of tens of thousands of people – how can a “good” monarch support that? Again, in Eberron alignment doesn’t represent someone’s actions on a global scale: it reflects the manner in which they pursue those goals. The good ruler believes that a just war is possible and that a united Khorvaire will prosper under her rule. She won’t condone torture, the mistreatment of civilians, and so on. She will treat her prisoners and emissaries fairly. Of course, her ministers and generals may engage in evil behavior in the name of the war; she will be horrified when she hears of it. Meanwhile, the evil king pursuing peace has a noble goal, but will do absolutely anything to achieve it. Torture? Oppressive martial law? Assassination? Anything. He’d kill members of his own family if he had to. So in both cases, the personal alignment tells you how they conduct their personal affairs, but nothing about the big picture.
Another good bit.
wrote:This is a key point with the Church of the Silver Flame. They are devoted to fighting supernatural evil: demons, undead, lycanthropy, etc. These are the things to fight with sword and spell. HUMAN evil is something that should be fought with compassion, charity, and guidance. Per Flame creed, you defeat mortal evil by guiding people to the light, not by killing them.
This part might explain how Ms. Trissa acts, perhaps. I really like the unerring devotion thing she's got going on. All the same, I find smite-happy paladins very distasteful (in general). My problem with the alignment system is that there are 'acceptable targets' such as goblins who are totally okay to kill. D&D basically says there are races who are automatically evil and who should be put to the sword because they are a nuisance. That is the kind of thing I do not enjoy at all. If fiends can change, why not the level 1 goblins near your starting village? They might have already done a lot of evil and they might be willing to do a lot more before they're done, but if you're in a position where you can slay them all, are you not also in a position where you can negotiate with them? It's a matter of taste, of course. I am alright with people playing trigger happy characters in general, but I treat it as a character flaw in the campaigns I run - something I also want my players to know.

Going further, what we define as 'good' and 'evil' actually says a lot about the values we hold as players. More often than not, these values are negotiated from a position of power: they favor the straight white man more likely than they favor anyone else. It is probably not too hard to find examples of 'good' or 'evil' that is not quite agreeable if you belong to a minority (the wholesale slaughter of goblins being an example I used here).
wrote: It is possible for the angel to fall or the demon to rise (as shown by the Quori bound to the kalashtar), but in these cases the spirit will typically physically transform to reflect this change. An angel that falls from Syrania will become a fiend or a radiant idol, for example. So when you meet a devil, you can generally be pretty sure itÂ’s lawful evil, because thatÂ’s what it means to BE a devil.
This kind of lore can actually be a pretty smooth solution to outsiders having free will and being able to change alignments. You could, for instance, start as a succubus and then work your way 'up' towards becoming a slaad. I imagine this would not be a very popular solution for playable characters, however (if you picked a succubus, you probably also want to keep playing a succubus - otherwise you'd gone for the slaad right away).
*Sinlinara
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Posted by *Sinlinara »


Miraie,Sep 10 2015 wrote:
wrote: It is possible for the angel to fall or the demon to rise (as shown by the Quori bound to the kalashtar), but in these cases the spirit will typically physically transform to reflect this change. An angel that falls from Syrania will become a fiend or a radiant idol, for example. So when you meet a devil, you can generally be pretty sure itÂ’s lawful evil, because thatÂ’s what it means to BE a devil.
This kind of lore can actually be a pretty smooth solution to outsiders having free will and being able to change alignments. You could, for instance, start as a succubus and then work your way 'up' towards becoming a slaad. I imagine this would not be a very popular solution for playable characters, however (if you picked a succubus, you probably also want to keep playing a succubus - otherwise you'd gone for the slaad right away).
You're very welcome for the link! Although that part specifically is something that I think is relevant specifically to Eberron and may or may not be relevant here as well (unless the staff agrees that it is relevant, in which case... \ o /). Syrania at least is an Eberron-only plane.
*MimiFearthegn
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Posted by *MimiFearthegn »


Sinlinara,Sep 10 2015 wrote:
Miraie,Sep 10 2015 wrote:
wrote: It is possible for the angel to fall or the demon to rise (as shown by the Quori bound to the kalashtar), but in these cases the spirit will typically physically transform to reflect this change. An angel that falls from Syrania will become a fiend or a radiant idol, for example. So when you meet a devil, you can generally be pretty sure itÂ’s lawful evil, because thatÂ’s what it means to BE a devil.
This kind of lore can actually be a pretty smooth solution to outsiders having free will and being able to change alignments. You could, for instance, start as a succubus and then work your way 'up' towards becoming a slaad. I imagine this would not be a very popular solution for playable characters, however (if you picked a succubus, you probably also want to keep playing a succubus - otherwise you'd gone for the slaad right away).
You're very welcome for the link! Although that part specifically is something that I think is relevant specifically to Eberron and may or may not be relevant here as well (unless the staff agrees that it is relevant, in which case... \ o /). Syrania at least is an Eberron-only plane.
A. Thereal, I think, pointed out something similar the last time we had a discussion about outsider alignment, and I think its generally relevant to every setting. While certain books tried really hard to talk about outsider races, outsiders were obviously originally meant to be creatures of their planes and alignments. . . meaning that if they ceased to be creatures of those planes and those alignments, they'd be something else.

The balance between every interpretation then ends up being letting characters move one step away from their alignment before remaking. You get the odd Sigil exception, or the rising/falling outsider who hasn't morphed appearance yet (and the leeway to refluff a little), while preserving what the race is meant to be. . . which is exactly where we are. Yay!
*Mick64
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Posted by *Mick64 »


Death Slaadi kind of make that theory not work though, since they're Chaotic Evil but they remain slaadi and don't gain the [evil] subtype. They're still made of pure chaos, but that doesn't stop them from being evil.
*Ariella
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Posted by *Ariella »


The thing is with a paladin its all based on that faith, Look at sune paladins for a good example!. I picked the flame cause i like the crazy devoted RP! smite all supernatural evils! and preach to everyone else.
*Ceremorph
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Posted by *Ceremorph »


What we're getting into here is shades of good and evil, and their impact upon the outer planes.

A Genghis Khan-style warlord who slaughters unarmed people simply because they are the "enemy", or a Stalin-like ruler who imprisons and tortures dissenters is undoubtably evil, but the effects of their evil do not transcend the material plane. Both these characters' victims will eventually find their place in their eventual afterlives, and in most cases not even remember the terror of their deaths.

On the other hand, a necromancer who occasionally brings back the dead as undead servants, or a member of a demonic cult who murders exactly two people in his life but consigns their non-evil souls to the abyss (or destroys them entirely) are far more evil than the previous two on a planar level. While the first pairs victims lose their lives, the second group's lose eternity. Even a character who simply uses soul prisms to buy a sword is doing more evil in that act than a serial killer can perform in a lifetime.

And this applies to good as well. While a Ghandi or a Mother Teresa analogue are undoubtably good, again their goodness is only affecting the material (although bonus points if by their actions they cause others to reform to goodness). The paladin who wages a fight against devils and demons, on the other hand, are doing more for the cause of planar good by saving the souls those creatures would otherwise be harvesting.


And as a total aside, calling a Baelnorn a lich is like calling a drow elf a halfling. Aside from one major similarity, all of the details are different.
*coyotesage
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Posted by *coyotesage »


Brindas,Sep 9 2015 wrote:
Mick64,Sep 9 2015 wrote: I'm curious what you'd make of this then. On another server I had a character, he was a wizard. He was generally a nice (if shy) guy. He'd protect his friends if needed, and even random strangers if there wasn't -too much- risk involved. He enjoyed his power but didn't use it to hurt innocents..... and he was Lawful Evil. Because he was a necromancer, and the raising of undead tainted his soul. He was brought up to think it was a normal thing to do, so he didn't see anything wrong with it. He wasn't pretending to be nice. He was genuinely rather nice.

This is what I mean by alignment not influencing actions, but the opposite. His alignment didn't make him do evil things. The one evil thing he did made his alignment evil.
The difference there is that his outlook isn't Evil, the ability he uses is. That is very different from a character with an evil outlook. (Incidentally, you mostly described Brindas on Port of Shadows). Associating with fiends or raising the undead or using this with the [Evil] descriptor will make you evil regardless of intent, because it does. It's useless to apply logic here, and Wizards (and TSR before it) said so. There's no intention, only action.

For everything else, however, intention matters. Messing with the soul, working with fiends, making sentient undead, these things are exceptions. Fireball, however, a spell that is generally used to make things not on fire now on fire (lethal to many creatures) is not. Intention absolutely matters here. I cast a fireball on a crowded group of people to kill them all.... chaotic evil, probably. I cast fireball on someone, and a kid was invisible, unbeknownst to me? Not evil. Yes. A kid died. Yes, my good or netural.. or... hell, it's a kid, even my evil characters will probably feel bad about it... but it's not evil. I didn't mean to kill a kid. So the action remains... whatever it was for fireballing the person I intended - anywhere from LG to CE or even not an alignment at all if it was something like warfare.

You can add gray if you want, even in D&D. Same situation, someone tells you "watch out, there's kids around that have been made invisible!". Well, ***.

But for the most part, that's what i meant. A character can have dilemmas, two characters of the same alignment could come to VERY different conclusions in the above situation with the intelligence.

So I guess what I'm saying is that alignment both guides future actions and is determined by previous ones. It does not DEMAND specific future actions, however, which is where I think people start railing against "you can't tell my character what to do". No one (should) be saying that, but your alignment is a good predictor.

Well, that came a long way from your example, I guess my answer is "What I said doesn't apply to actions classified as "always evil"." but there's very, very few of those. Also, associating and helping fiends is one of them.. which is another reason it's better to not have fiends running through poppy fields naked with nymphs while breastfeeding orphaned celestials.
I still don't see what the point of anything being inherently evil or good is. In fact, I find it rather silly, but if that's the case, then so be it. As far as I'm concerned intention and action are all that matter in the spectrum and I'll happily play my Chaotic Evil nicest guy you've ever met who is practically harmless thank you very much. Why is he Chaotic Evil? I don't know, maybe he was messing around with some souls and thought he could improve them or something and accidentally destroyed them instead. Now the cosmos think's hes pure evil. Ok, sure, fine, that's not going to really later the way I play the character. And if it doesn't do that, then really what's the point of the limitation?

This is essentially the religious argument. The God said these are good things and these are bad things, irrespective of our own value judgments and beliefs, and it's over-reaching power is what dictates these truths.

BUT, if Outsiders are existentially and morphologically linked to the universe's value judgements, and thus change or cease to exist based on not following that, then I suppose it would make sense to limit their alignments, because they can't be what they are without being aligned with the opinion of the universe. As far as why anyone thinks that's interesting...I have no idea. It's almost the most dull thing I can conceive of, even more so than watching my face dry naturally in the mirror over the course of too many hours after a rogue shower went wrong. So very wrong.

I'm pretty sure that's the last I have to say on this topic.
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