Metagaming

[*Guido]

Sigil has it's flaws. Some of you may think it's detect undead or maybe the lack of non-detection. Maybe it's the intrinsic suspension of belief that a halfling really could beat a demon up with it's bare hands. Those are little flaws but they add up. The biggest flaw I see is we're all human and despite everything people tell you, we aren't all equal and it's important to acknowledge that. If something comes up in game, try and hash it out. For all of the flaws of the game and even the server itself, Sigil's pretty great. The only way it could really get better is if say my pc could be higher level than the rest of yours. Now I'm not demanding it but I'll leave the door open on that one. Totally open to it if say, you want to let me go to 40. Just sayin'.

[*Embersworn]

Stating that your character automatically succeeds at punching someone is autoing and meta.

But stating that another character automatically can't do something because of their race also would be autoing and meta.

So either way a dice roll, or talking things out.

Autoing is against the rules, you can't impose results on people. Now you can request for dice roll contest, but technically it's up to the two sides to describe results in co-narrative.

I mean, that was kind of the problem. When the other person punched my character, they disliked it that I was like, "Um, no...no 'boneshattering'. You didn't break his nose. No, did not agree to that. If you want to punch him, fine. He deserved it. But his nose is fine." As I said, we resolved it via PMs.

In a setting with wizards, psions and dragons a "mundane" small humanoid can grapple giants.

It's still subject to physics.

Physics that say that monks can split stones with bare hands and you can dual-wield two handed swords? Riiight...

It's not realistic and if you state that a gnome or a halfling can't simply punch hard no matter their build and character concept it's just a very biased look and meta as hell...

It's basically ignoring RP for subjective reason because you don't like it before you even roll the dice.

[*rapsam2003]

Stating that your character automatically succeeds at punching someone is autoing and meta.

I rolled for Str. The other PC was surprised. Note that I specifically asked the other PC if I could hit their PC with a light whack on the head, that player agreed, and they chose not to try and dodge. And, then, their PC got angry. That was fine. It was all part of the RP.

But stating that another character automatically can't do something because of their race also would be autoing and meta.

If I didn't agree to getting a broken nose, the other player trying to say they did a "boneshattering" blow isn't cool either. Getting punched so hard your nose breaks is not required, in RP - unless a PvP battle was specifically agreed on.

So either way a dice roll, or talking things out.

And we did talk things out. My PC got a very sore and tender nose. Their PC was hauled off by the Harmonium for brawling and destruction of property. (Getting hauled off was the choice of the other player.)


I hardly think it's meta to say "Physics apply, regardless of race". Magic doesn't cause physics to be different, unless said magic causes size or weight to change. A purely physical contest (dex vs str rolls) still has physics applying.
Splitting stones requires Ki (body magic), from monks. Wielding dual two-handed swords still has limitations: that being physical training, which is shown mechanically through a feat.

And it wasn't ignoring RP. It was stating I wanted less violent RP; it was meant to be minor kerfluffle. Bodily harm, on this server, must be agreed on, correct? I took the punch, as I said. Unless it's a PvP duel (which the situation was NOT), there is no RP reason for a PC to try to break another PC's bones. Trying to force that conclusion is metagaming, to me.
I don't see anywhere in the server rules that says I have to accept my PC breaking a bone, outside of a prior agreement to engage in a PvP battle. A minor slap-fight is NOT a PvP battle.

Side-note: The whole reason the situation happened was because the other PC was being rude to everyone else in Khazeet's. Morthos doesn't like rude behavior, unless it's funny. Trying to piss off other PCs is fine, but that player should expect other PCs to react accordingly. Saying the f-word every third word is not going to cause other PCs to like your PC. (Using the actual f-word is against server rules, isn't it? rule of being 2.1, right?) Even though no one may understand the f-word in Sigil, they would get that you're being rude.

[*Embersworn]

IDK. If I have my my PC in a heated discussion with another I usually take into account that it may or may not end in a scuffle if they're unstable (or I'm an a-hole enough).

Except you can't just declare punching someone in a situation when they totally see it coming, so yeah... Talking out things or at least an initiative roll is nice.

[*rapsam2003]

IDK. If I have my my PC in a heated discussion with another I usually take into account that it may or may not end  in a scuffle if they're unstable (or I'm an a-hole enough).

I knew it would enter into a scuffle. The other PC was obviously the kind who would go full-steam ahead through anyone who pissed them off. That was how the other player was playing their character. Since the other PC was being obviously rude to all of the, like...10 other PCs (including mine) in the area, I did not think it OOC to try and force a minor scuffle to get the other person to act better or go away. My PC is a fiend, and we all know fiends are generally arrogant (but not stupid). A minor scuffle need not end in blood being spilled or in broken bones. We're all adults here, and we can all tailor our PC's actions to being reasonable for the situation without breaking character.

Except you can't just declare punching someone in a situation when they totally see it coming, so yeah... Talking out things or at least an initiative roll is nice.

We did roll. I said that.

And the other PC was told several times by several other PCs (including mine) to stop being rude. Finally, Morthos had enough. I doubt any PC is going to take several minutes of someone insulting every person in the area. Some PCs may leave, but others are likely to take matters into their own hands, as mine did.

Bottom line: As a player, I don't think that any other player (including me) should be forced to do things RP that were not previously agreed on. Escalating conflict beyond a minor scuffle, when it was obviously meant to be a minor scuffle - not cool. As I said, it was talked out via PMs. It just seems like metagaming to try to force the situation to be YOUR way (despite the other player's desire) and then complaining when the other player says, "No, didn't agree to that".

[*edmaster44]

..i'll always thought when a player used a stat against another player like diplomacy and intimidate, it was 'optional' whether you choose to ignore it or not, I mean i'm sorry if your argument is shit and you roll Diplomacy as a way to add sprinkles to that shit, sorry it's still shit and shit don't fly with me, you better make a VERY GOOD argument. Speaking from Experience before.

[*Lucereflame]

as a rule of thumb usually Skills such as that are intended to be used on NPC's. Though if willing the players may decide to apply it to in game use.. After all i can have a Appraise check maxed out .. that dose not mean the player merchant is going to give me a Crazy discount that the tavern merchant is going to.

[*rapsam2003]

as a rule of thumb usually  Skills such as that are intended to be used on NPC's.  Though if willing  the players may decide to apply it to in game use..  After all i can have a Appraise check  maxed out .. that dose not mean the player merchant is going to give me a Crazy discount that the  tavern merchant is going to.

In PnP, if 1 player is trying to, for instance, convince another player of something, they roll opposing checks. Maybe Bluff and Will; depends on DM.
Similarly, if I'm RP'ing slapping someone (be aware this may cause PvP), then I'm rolling to do a touch attack or rolling Strength. They can roll Dexterity to avoid it or maybe use Strength to block it. Players roll against each too; whoever wins the roll, they win.

That said, I agree with edmaster. If your argument is that shit don't stink, and my PC knows it does (which every PC knows literal feces stink) -- then it doesn't matter how high your Diplomacy or Bluff roll is. On the other hand, if you roll Diplomacy or Bluff or Charisma and try to flirt with my PC, he or she os going to notice and may react (how he reacts depends on sex of my PC).

[*Mick64]

Don't bring Physics into D&D. It just doesn't work. See exhibit A : The Commoner rail gun.

Now one thing that IS important is that for most feats of strength, size has a large impact. For things like grappling, knockdown, lifting heavy stuff, breaking stuff.... each size category above / bellow medium grants +4/-4 to the roll. So that halfling with 26 STR (+8 modifier) is still only as good at grappling as a 10 STR Ogre (The weakest ogre ever, lol). Punches are not one of those things though.


Also social skills don't work on PCs. That's a rule both in PnP and Sigil, though some people (Hi!) will still take them partially into account.

[*rapsam2003]

Don't bring Physics into D&D. It just doesn't work. See exhibit A : The Commoner rail gun.

Basic physics like whether a small person can grapple a giant -- if they haven't use the "Enlarge Person" spell -- still applies. You lack the weight as a halfling with 26 strength to grapple the giant. Best you're going to do is slow the giant down, because it now has this 75 pound creature hanging onto it. A halfling's mass vs. a gaint's mass IS physics.

Punches are not one of those things though.

As I said, the issue wasn't the punch. The issue was the other player wanted to make it "boneshattering". If your intent is NOT to break a bone, don't use the word "boneshattering" when describing your punch. And escalating what was agreed upon, to beyond the bounds of the agreement, is never cool.