Lack of respectful communication both in silence and in words. The responses to this thread (and lack thereof) dull my enthusiasm to game here.
Wanted to chime in with my opinion on the bad vibes.
*tips hat*
::EDIT::
Not naming anyone here, but purposely antagonizing anyone for no reasonable purpose with no goal in sight other than to increase and cause pain is borderline (if not outright) harassment in my book.
::END EDIT::
Concerning Karasuthra
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*MimiFearthegn
- Posts: 762
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
I'd like to reiterate some of what Darkrob has been saying here, along with some elaboration. Honestly, I thought everyone on the build team was aware that the staff (and other builders, frankly) sometimes change things. I apologize for not stating that more publicly. We try to keep a very liberal policy when it comes to module additions, and we do try to let some time go by before changing anything. We appreciate the work that goes into building. That said, no contribution is guaranteed to stay the same forever. From both a module design and management standpoint, that's just not feasible.
Most of you probably know that I've done several areas for the module. I have come back multiple times from breaks to discover new things in my areas - gazebos in "my" road, other people's code in my code, and (sometimes) my player house unreachable (no hard feelings, mind, just illustrating a point :D). It happens. There are other people working in the module, and at the end of the day, what's important is that it works and it is cohesive.
Secondly, I was under the impression that Neerepha had publicly resigned and didn't plan on being around much anymore. Thus the lack of a message.
That said, I'm not really going to apologize for the changes. It was a staff decision, not the action of one lone person. We were motivated by lore, and module design.
I recognized the secret valley was from Howl's Moving Castle the first time I saw it, and it is a beautiful tribute to that movie. That said, that tranquil scene does not fit with most of the DM's team idea of Karasuthra. Karasuthra is the layer of the Beastlands inhabited by predators; despite being part of a good-aligned plane, it is unmistakably a dangerous place. We eventually want to add monsters and quests to the zones. We also wanted to link the layers of the Beastlands together, as per our ancient plans for Planar pathways.
The cabin was also rather misleading, since we have, in the past, consciously avoided manmade structures in the Beastlands (for instance, we would not allow someone to build a player house that looks like that cabin in the Beastlands).
I'm not saying these things to put down the work, but to explain why the staff made the decision to change it.
Now as Ariella said in a previous thread, the pathway as it is is probably not permanent. She may change it as part of her fey plans. We are deliberately leaving our options open there.
Most of you probably know that I've done several areas for the module. I have come back multiple times from breaks to discover new things in my areas - gazebos in "my" road, other people's code in my code, and (sometimes) my player house unreachable (no hard feelings, mind, just illustrating a point :D). It happens. There are other people working in the module, and at the end of the day, what's important is that it works and it is cohesive.
Secondly, I was under the impression that Neerepha had publicly resigned and didn't plan on being around much anymore. Thus the lack of a message.
That said, I'm not really going to apologize for the changes. It was a staff decision, not the action of one lone person. We were motivated by lore, and module design.
I recognized the secret valley was from Howl's Moving Castle the first time I saw it, and it is a beautiful tribute to that movie. That said, that tranquil scene does not fit with most of the DM's team idea of Karasuthra. Karasuthra is the layer of the Beastlands inhabited by predators; despite being part of a good-aligned plane, it is unmistakably a dangerous place. We eventually want to add monsters and quests to the zones. We also wanted to link the layers of the Beastlands together, as per our ancient plans for Planar pathways.
The cabin was also rather misleading, since we have, in the past, consciously avoided manmade structures in the Beastlands (for instance, we would not allow someone to build a player house that looks like that cabin in the Beastlands).
I'm not saying these things to put down the work, but to explain why the staff made the decision to change it.
Now as Ariella said in a previous thread, the pathway as it is is probably not permanent. She may change it as part of her fey plans. We are deliberately leaving our options open there.
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*Er_Nano_Infame
- Posts: 435
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
some points for me:
i miss the cottage and the reknown scenario from the movie . that said perhaps an ingame description about it compatible with planescape lore would have given a reason as to why a house is in the night of the beastlands, for players to know and cope with. though i can cope also with the unknown ic origin of it
while i understand the need and idea to connect layers of the beastlands, i'd picked the mountain pass. being a mountain pass it coul split in different directions, or a way down the great waterfall into the waterfall area of brux. Perhaps a possible reason like ''mantaining the linear areas progression of karasuthra'' was behind the modding of the secret valley, but frankly its beauty is clear in the name and quite fits, cottage or not
i dont know by what rule or custom a player can or not have a say in what they donate. So i won't go down some pseudo legal server wise reason as to why it should or shouldn't.
i'll say what for me feels more right though, in a more general outlook :
if the original maker did a good job, the area has its coherency and sense, a design, besides the hours of work. you're not in the original maker's head, so it's about respect, by an artistic point of view, to consult them.
this happened to neerepha's bistrot area at the golden bauriar. it was removed and not even by one of the staff , but another em / volunteer builder as they were improving the lady's ward. and they did, save for that one thing, which was replaced by nothing and still is. perhaps they had intention to place something else there, and i guess they were allowed to rework the lady's, but not all of the lady's was work of core staff members.
it feels more resaonable that once the staff gives approval to alter an area, the permission should regard only what of that area was done by any member of the staff, because first the staff already offers what they themselves made, with the running of the server, and second because i imagine they discuss with each other about such changes.
if something is made by a volunteering non dm-admin staff member, they made it with a precise concept in mind and to offer something, donate, to the server as they meant it. would you alter a gift that was given to not just you only but to the whole communnity, as its use is meant to be, without discussing with -at least- the original maker, if not the whole players?
since an area is made for this server only, the version current present in the server would be the only one present and used to the public, unlike, say, a picture: i could alter a picture under creativecommons with the appropriate licenses, but my alteration wouldnt automatically cancel the presence of the original version from the web.
but with a pw server area is not like that, any alteration would change the original's epxerience of the users, so in my opinion is only right to consult the original maker so that they aren't ignored or expelled form the circle of creativity they helped ot expand.
i dont think it is too hard to keep track of which area or building was made by who, just need a simple list with reference and names, and when needed you warn them of the impending changes and ask them if they would mind the changes, and if they do tell them to offer a valid alternative.
i suppose a time lapse could be placed beyind which if the warning to the original builder goes unasnwered, the staff can proceed with the modification. But i think the original creator would be glad to help with modifying it
and i can also understand that there may no time to wait for the original maker, but i dont see haste as commoon scenario of area making tbh.
perhaps ask the original makers to tell upon delivering an area if they care for their involvement in future alterations or not, or only partially, i.e. if just for major change, while leaving minor changes up to the staff.
being aware of that they woud less likely not respond to a warning
just my 50 cents, yo
i miss the cottage and the reknown scenario from the movie . that said perhaps an ingame description about it compatible with planescape lore would have given a reason as to why a house is in the night of the beastlands, for players to know and cope with. though i can cope also with the unknown ic origin of it
while i understand the need and idea to connect layers of the beastlands, i'd picked the mountain pass. being a mountain pass it coul split in different directions, or a way down the great waterfall into the waterfall area of brux. Perhaps a possible reason like ''mantaining the linear areas progression of karasuthra'' was behind the modding of the secret valley, but frankly its beauty is clear in the name and quite fits, cottage or not
i dont know by what rule or custom a player can or not have a say in what they donate. So i won't go down some pseudo legal server wise reason as to why it should or shouldn't.
i'll say what for me feels more right though, in a more general outlook :
if the original maker did a good job, the area has its coherency and sense, a design, besides the hours of work. you're not in the original maker's head, so it's about respect, by an artistic point of view, to consult them.
this happened to neerepha's bistrot area at the golden bauriar. it was removed and not even by one of the staff , but another em / volunteer builder as they were improving the lady's ward. and they did, save for that one thing, which was replaced by nothing and still is. perhaps they had intention to place something else there, and i guess they were allowed to rework the lady's, but not all of the lady's was work of core staff members.
it feels more resaonable that once the staff gives approval to alter an area, the permission should regard only what of that area was done by any member of the staff, because first the staff already offers what they themselves made, with the running of the server, and second because i imagine they discuss with each other about such changes.
if something is made by a volunteering non dm-admin staff member, they made it with a precise concept in mind and to offer something, donate, to the server as they meant it. would you alter a gift that was given to not just you only but to the whole communnity, as its use is meant to be, without discussing with -at least- the original maker, if not the whole players?
since an area is made for this server only, the version current present in the server would be the only one present and used to the public, unlike, say, a picture: i could alter a picture under creativecommons with the appropriate licenses, but my alteration wouldnt automatically cancel the presence of the original version from the web.
but with a pw server area is not like that, any alteration would change the original's epxerience of the users, so in my opinion is only right to consult the original maker so that they aren't ignored or expelled form the circle of creativity they helped ot expand.
i dont think it is too hard to keep track of which area or building was made by who, just need a simple list with reference and names, and when needed you warn them of the impending changes and ask them if they would mind the changes, and if they do tell them to offer a valid alternative.
i suppose a time lapse could be placed beyind which if the warning to the original builder goes unasnwered, the staff can proceed with the modification. But i think the original creator would be glad to help with modifying it
and i can also understand that there may no time to wait for the original maker, but i dont see haste as commoon scenario of area making tbh.
perhaps ask the original makers to tell upon delivering an area if they care for their involvement in future alterations or not, or only partially, i.e. if just for major change, while leaving minor changes up to the staff.
being aware of that they woud less likely not respond to a warning
just my 50 cents, yo
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*MimiFearthegn
- Posts: 762
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
I appreciate keeping artistic vision whole. However, there's also the artistic vision of the entire module to consider.
Regardless, I think that Neerepha made her stance clear, and Darkrob and I have articulated why things happened the way they did. If Neerepha has further questions, I would be happy to continue the conversation via PM.
Locking the thread.
Regardless, I think that Neerepha made her stance clear, and Darkrob and I have articulated why things happened the way they did. If Neerepha has further questions, I would be happy to continue the conversation via PM.
Locking the thread.