Do you want Guns?

[*edmaster44]

I just want to point out that Giff are not a very good example. They are a Spelljammer race, not a Planescape race. And Spelljammer is explicitly "Sci-fi D&D". While Spelljammer exists in Planescape, it has a very different tone and themes.

Good point.

[*Bleuception]

Correction; Spelljammer is a sci-fantasy setting more than a "Sci-Fi" setting.

Technology isn't prominent in Spelljammer; Magic still is.

I'm afraid you missed the "Spell" part in Spelljammer, there, friend.

Just like in Planescape, there are planes and whatnot as well as multiple Primes. It's just fashioned in a way that people rely more upon magic-powered vessels to travel between crystal spheres, instead of portals between inner/outer planes/primes/etc.

So, it would've been a good point, if the setting was sci-fi to begin with. Which it is not. Sorry.


Edit: Also, if your purpose is to deconstruct facts across D&D that present instances in which firearms were and are used in a non-intrusive way, you should also tackle not just Spelljammer and Giff but other source material in which they're present. Pinpointing one of the given examples as a way to weight an argument seems rather lazy when some of us have been going in length to explain in more details.

Also, I picked Giff because they're more likely to be known on account of being silly-looking. I would be more than happy if we could simply sprinkle some weapon models that represent it enough, however that would still not solve the issue that aside from the Longbow there are no other really viable options from a mechanics point of view. Crossbows are hardcoded into being awful. I see no suggestions for alternatives. Only either people enthused about the idea, neutral, or the ever so selfish sounding "I don't want guns in my fantasy."

I guess, if people are so unwilling to compromise, they could play single player games.

[*Rayanne]

That's a very adequate point Bleuception makes. PCs within Sigil are the one percentile of the city's population. So what may seem commonplace for a planar-traveling adventurer is not something you would see afforded by the salary of say a baker or your average level one sellsword NPC. Whether guns are allowed or not on the module, they'd still be rare to the vast majority.

Flintlock guns aren't exactly advanced technology, and are (potentially) fairly crude, inexpensive and simple in design compared to the work and craftmanship that goes into making a good sword.
Once the word and knowledge about guns becomes commonplace, I don't see why every capable blacksmith or tinkerer in Sigil wouldn't begin selling them by the dozens, if not hundreds.

You can't just introduce guns to a setting/society/civilization and expect nothing to change.

or the ever so selfish sounding "I don't want guns in my fantasy."

As opposed to "I want guns in everybody's fantasy!"?

[*Lucadia]

Players was already capable of producing hundred of guns if they wanted. They dont carry the same weight or meaning in a game setting as compared to real life.

[*[<3]]

Correction; Spelljammer is a sci-fantasy setting more than a "Sci-Fi" setting.

Technology isn't prominent in Spelljammer; Magic still is.

I'm afraid you missed the "Spell" part in Spelljammer, there, friend.

Just like in Planescape, there are planes and whatnot as well as multiple Primes. It's just fashioned in a way that people rely more upon magic-powered vessels to travel between crystal spheres, instead of portals between inner/outer planes/primes/etc.

So, it would've been a good point, if the setting was sci-fi to begin with. Which it is not. Sorry.


Edit: Also, if your purpose is to deconstruct facts across D&D that present instances in which firearms were and are used in a non-intrusive way, you should also tackle not just Spelljammer and Giff but other source material in which they're present. Pinpointing one of the given examples as a way to weight an argument seems rather lazy when some of us have been going in length to explain in more details.

Also, I picked Giff because they're more likely to be known on account of being silly-looking. I would be more than happy if we could simply sprinkle some weapon models that represent it enough, however that would still not solve the issue that aside from the Longbow there are no other really viable options from a mechanics point of view. Crossbows are hardcoded into being awful. I see no suggestions for alternatives. Only either people enthused about the idea, neutral, or the ever so selfish sounding "I don't want guns in my fantasy."

I guess, if people are so unwilling to compromise, they could play single player games.

I have to say I find this post highly offensive, sorry.

Especially the last bit is nothing if not insulting.

Several people who wrote and replied in this thread were trying to compromise, matter of factly, but this post just slaps them across the face (and even those of us who merely voted 'no').

[*Bleuception]

or the ever so selfish sounding "I don't want guns in my fantasy."

As opposed to "I want guns in everybody's fantasy!"?

I don't believe I ever said that. I'll explain further after the next quote.

My previous post, don't think I need that mistake here in whole again.

I have to say I find this post highly offensive, sorry.

Especially the last bit is nothing if not insulting.

Several people who wrote and replied in this thread were trying to compromise, matter of factly, but this post just slaps them across the face (and even those of us who merely voted 'no').

I have to agree with your sentiments, and I apologize.

This situation reminds me of another, elsewhere, which quite frankly triggered me basically. It shouldn't have, but it did. I'm much calmer now and I realize that a lot of that post was unfair, and an open attack on others.


My issues are still mostly rooted in mechanical limitations of NWN2/D&D 3.5 which leads to the unfortunate circumstance that I am now open to literally any options that can alleviate the weight of revisiting a, as of 2018, outdated edition of D&D. While 3.5 is still fun and has many merits, but it also had a lot of faults.

That and the situation reminded me of a particular situation in another server, months back, in which others had been open unfair to me. But no sob stories; I'm just sorry I let the past influence my response here. I hope you'll be able to forgive me for that.

I'll put a list here to organize my thoughts on what I'd be totally up for, without the needless aggression behind it;

• A wider variety of weapon models for stylistic choices.
• Making the Crossbow weapon types (and other ranged options) more approachable and a more competitive choice when compared to the Longbow (Which is problematic; hardcoded, I think).
• If a weapon type can be replaced for something else, I'm not against it; however ideally I would prefer we keep what we have, and add to it, for the sake of variety, giving people options, rather than completely removing one of those options. Edit: View the next post. I derp'd.
• No changes. Ultimately, SCoD operates rather well without the addition of firearms, and while I do appreciate variety, all of the options are appealing to me since I have had my share of fun without guns and can continue to have fun without them.

My behavior was inexcusable and unfair. I won't delete or cover up my other post because what is said is said, but nonetheless, I will apologize again. I'm sorry.

[*Lucadia]

We cant customize a new type without canablizing one the weapon types we already have. So just adding the models would be still crossbows.

[*Cenerae]

Making the Crossbow weapon types (and other ranged options) more approachable and a more competitive choice when compared to the Longbow (Which is problematic; hardcoded, I think).

Crossbows could be made more competetive if someone would be willing to go and make a version of the Crossbow Sniper feats that are available in Kaedrin's.

For those unfamiliar, it essentially allows you to add your dex modifier to your damage done with crossbows. So it turns crossbows into a burst fire weapon. It will still functionally provide less damage per round than a longbow can, due to limited attacks, but it'd have some pretty meaty burst damage with the opening manyshot attacks. Especially if you add assassin to the mix (since death attack applies to both bolts, whereas sneak attack only applies to the first).

Then again, it might not be enough to compete against the new quivers.

I have no idea how to make slings relevant, and I imagine that's why the original mod cannibalizes them instead of crossbows. Maybe some kind of specialized prestige class could be in order?

[*Ve'keer]

What if we added gun models to longbows or shortbows? I'm not convinced by the "guns don't belong in sigil" argument to be honest and I'd like more reasons against it other than "it breaks immersion" or "they render other weapons obsolete" as the first causes hot debate and the second has been disproved based on history unless we plan on playing sigil for another 50 - 300 years while guns are slowly and steadily upgraded. *Awaits vehement hate*

[*Lucadia]

Just adding the models dont allow for any customization. All the ranged weapons are hard coded. Replacing one that had new scripted things allow us to completely customize them.

they also lack the new animations or not look right. Considering a long bow can fire 7 a round easily.