Just Some Discussion

[*silinrul357]

Maybe I'll rear my ugly head on this one and offer some points. O already kind of nailed in the first post what I try to do all the time, and that is encourage players to start involving others in their plots or, better yet, make their own, and do it in a way that doesn't require an EM. I know this is one of those easier said than done things, and it won't always have takers or people who are even interested (recently I tried to motivate the bazaar full of people to work for a blue dragon of mine, and a grand total of zero players took up the offer out of at least eight present, so this serves as a perfect example).

I find one primary obstacle to all of this? Player count. Yeah, I'm afraid the hard numbers come down to it, and I've always found NWN2 to be one of those strange cases where the bigger the number is, the more quickly it might grow. If it starts low, it's likely to stay low. What do I mean by this? It's an unfortunate truth to face, but SCoD has always in the times I've played had some lacking numbers. Have they always been low? Not necessarily, but the peak I personally have ever been around for was 34 players, and that was a long time ago. Call that a positive or negative as you will, but the numbers game is pretty simple: The more people there are, the more there is to RP and play with, and the opposite is true as well.

So, the question to that might be, how with a lower count, and no EM help, could you create something for others to enjoy? Well, I have a few tips on that end.

The first, and probably the obvious, is to possibly create a story to follow, and if needed, even take some liberties to create secondary characters that could serve as plot hooks in that story. In my case, I've been using old characters I played AND their resources to pool up hints and interest in plots which are eventually (if life doesn't kill me by then) going to come to fruition. It can be approached many ways, but it's up to you as the player to find the creativity to do it if lacking EM ability.

The second, and this is actually harder for many than some realize, is that if you want to have a plot in which you can involve others outside of your niche or collective group, your character NEEDS to be open. I've seen it everywhere, but it's especially true in Sigil: If you go into a dark corner in a tavern, sit there, and brood to yourself, no one is going to care. This isn't to say you -cant- play these characters, and if you enjoy them that's fine, but understand that a lack of involvement with others is the price you're going to play. If you play a character that's a jerk, they're going to be treated like they're a jerk. If you play a quiet character, you're not going to get a lot of conversation. If they do nothing but talk to their own friends in some secluded place, you're going to have no one new to talk to.

The final and probably most important of all of these points is openess. NWN2, while an okay module to play and RP on, certainly is dated and has limits, and one of these translates to what the game can do. Say for instance a spell I like to emote my character Vahn using: mage hand. It's a cantrip, and good for only so much, but I like to emote it in RP. Now if you're one whom worries about someone objecting to something not in the module, you'll be happy to know that I've had exactly zero complaints so far, although that might stem from me not using it in any combative way.

One might see how being open with doing things not in the module simply on a spell mechanic or otherwise might be useful, but I've also a need to discuss an openess to accept other styles of Rp, and if you want to involve others in a story, a willingness to adapt. Some people out there like to just come on, relax by the bazaar fire, and have a good chat. Others, on the other hand, abhor this idea and get frustrated by no one going out and exploring or being somewhere other than there. Myself, I'm a mixture between those, being fine with a good chat, but also liking the occasional planeswalking adventure, or heck, even heading down through undersigil for no other reason than I can! In the end, if you want to make some kind of story or adventure for others to be involved in, you've a need to come to some kind of concensus on how to approach this, and remember that dialogue can be just as important to developing a character as might be going somewhere to discover something new. I personally think a healthy mixture of both provides the best results.

One other thing to note, and that is you shouldn't be afraid to take a backseat every once in awhile. What do I mean by that? Well, every single character I have now has a story. It's also of note that of those characters, the ones that had a big story are all retired or relegated to giving event bits like I stated above. The other ones that I play more regularly have backgrounds, but nothing really going on with them, and that's because I like to make them more of the 'supporting cast' to other people's stories. Following on the side, showing interest in other people's stories, and allowing them to take the lead can be far more fun than one might think. This may sound conflicting with my points above about making events yourself, and that's because it is. I mean this more towards others whom are part of a character's story rather than the focus of it. On the other hand though, it goes both ways! If you get that time to do your own thing and be awesome, hopefully they will show the same support for you!

That's my bit o' elderly advice for the day, I really do hope someone can garner some inspiration out of it. If it was bad and you hate it, please send all hatemail to Mr_Otyugh666@notarealemailaddress.com :)

[*edmaster44]

I've not logged in for over a month or close too it cause of School(Last Semester) So far things are going great and I've also been checking out a few Servers in Both NWN1 and 2 and it has inspired me to help bring this place up too snuff and even surpass it, that's my builder side speaking, EM side? I'm always available for a chat, if you want an Event Done or start something intriguing , feel free to shoot me a PM, i'm all for it, the best events are done pushed by, made by and done by players, sure i can crank out events and what not, but i don't think it will have the same impact as one pushed by players.

[*Kiljaedon]

I guess I am late in responding but I do have an insight I wish to contribute. Compared to some other servers Sigil has always had trouble fielding a large pop. It was always behind by half or more from the Baldurs Gate server back when I was heavily involved in NWN2 campaigns.

The blunt truth is Planescape is confusing and hard to roleplay in. Baldurs Gate and the Faerun is more traditional High-fantasy and a familiar place that people can roleplay more simple factions and alignments. Sigil all sides come together to interact in a hub of an infinite number of races/species and those with their goals that is on another level then adventuring with just random portal strangers.

Planesscape is a selfish pnp required roleplaying format. It has a structure and build system that is neigh untouchable in the form of the Mistress of Pain. We are central in a hub that has a supreme authority that has never been defeated or even had her power questioned minus that god that did get pretty far in trying to take over Sigil before she intervened.

That makes Planescape possibly one of the most advanced campaigns to roleplay and interact in because it goes against all the norms of other pnp campaigns which is probably a huge detractor as it is. My family use to run with AT and T a server that was based on another difficult DnD world Athas with Dark Suns Online. They also had alot of obstacles to overcome and if you want my suggestion maybe familiar methods that make people feel closer to a basement PNP weekly event would work well.

Dark Suns Online was a hard campaign to properly play in because it was a brutal non high fantasy world as well. The first several months my uncles had issues with a stable player base and cheating since it was easily circumvented via hex editing. What they did is start a real life campaign to bring traditional PNP storystelling based on a weekly event that involved several factions and gave different people the stage based on which faction or group of people was centered on the event at the time.

Maybe we should have a roundtable discussion in discord or IRC to maybe try to have a weekly DND ish campaign on a certain night for an hour with synopsis posts that sort of turns into a flowing novel based on what the major participants did during the events of noteworth.

The Waveback machine and the old Dark Suns website has quite a few snippets of information that maybe of value on this system and it worked well for my family in the 90's and ended up being the ONLY game on the TEN network that was profitable during the mid 90's til it was closed in September of 99.

This is a chance for us to have a trully chaotic and wonderfully good time. Maybe the Mistress of Pain could go on vacation and the factions become a bit complacent and try to over reach their hand. Game of Thrones intrigue and a rumble of epic proportions in the streets of the Bird-cage for a bit to arouse interest eh? These factions need crafters to support their cause, spies to give them the edge and mercy killers need prey... Endless possibilities.

The other side of the coin is the confusing and hard to level in world itself. My Spirit shaman has been the person I have roleplayed on and off for a decade on here and most of his level gaining was through the events and sometimes a hunting part that took a few years to max out. Until we can figure out how to boost the ranks of the population maybe a power boost to the henchman could be of use to let people solo a bit more efficiently. Leveling up is a major goal of new people regardless this is still a game where most people want to hit the top tier of the level system with their created classes.

[*Melmoth]

Sigil is a fantastic setting, and the server is great. It is, however, nothing your standard, knowledgeable, faerunian "Drizzt lover" would recognize, or easily adapt to RP in.

Aside from the lore barrier (which is colossal: just think about the planes, the factions, the portals...it's nice to RP a "clueless" character, but when the player him/herself is clueless, it can be discouraging), there is a roadblock at least as big: the scope of playable characters.

If 20 people on, say, Haven or BGTSCC (two mentioned servers) play a few human, elven or dwarven adventurers, find a common ground to party together isn't so complicated most of the times.

However, if a Tanar'ri, a Baatezu, a Deva, a Human Lich, a Drone and a Dragon meet, partying together (or even speaking to each other) might appear far-fetched to the Planescape neophyte.

Add the intrinsically exclusive (on the surface) faction roleplay, and you have a (again, superficially) highly fragmented setting harsher than the Underdark, full of weird creatures constituting the worst possible monsters expert RPers are used to face that suddenly are played characters, and the confusing situation with the planes, portals, keys and whatnot.

It's enough for someone unwilling to delve deep into the lore to call bullshit and go elsewhere, where things "make sense". It's also the reason Planescape: Torment was less successful than Baldur's Gate, even though widely recognized as a fantastic game.

Ultimately, I believe we, as players, have to go out of our way to "get things going" for others as well. Once it takes momentum, many will join in and add to it, but it takes effort to turn the wheel at first.

However, and for the record: I have seen up to 60 people on these forums recently, and most of the time, when I log in there are 15-20 players around.

It shows the interest is very much there: players just wait for a sign of activity. They got many recently, and in my opinion, many noticed. What is required of DMs is indeed support, attention and validation, more than events. The ideas and momentum should come from the players, beside the overarching metaplot in the background.

[*Sinlinara]

It might be important to note that the "number of users active in the last 15 minutes" section is misleading. If people aren't logged in, guests are often counted multiple times. I suspect that it is probably due to people browsing on their phones, but I can't say for certain. It should be pretty obvious that we've never actually had 1,296 people online simultaneously though.

[*Darkrob]

One thing I will note (and it's simply my opinion for better or worse), something that has been on my mind for a long time, is since the inception of the New PrC races... nothing is special. A while back (as troublesome as it was) we had PrC's that were granted to players by having a builder custom build them. These PrC's were special. If you saw a Vampire, it was likely the only one or one of a very few. A lich was a unique and feared creature, a gargoyle, an illithid... whatever. You had something special and you RP'd it accordingly. When people interacted with you, your story and species were tied together in such a way as to stand out. Now... very little makes you stand out. 'I have a Celestial warbringer!' Meh... already four. 'I have a vampyric mystic' Meh... whole group of them over there. 'I have...', who cares... it's likely been done and no one really cares. On and on. No matter the design or backstory you come up with it's usually 'Meh... already done. Nothing special... two more standing behind you. That has caused some people to grow bored and fade away. Where once they had something special, they now have something mundane and vanilla.

I think we need to somehow find a way to bring back that uniqueness. I'm not saying we need to restore the old PrC program or set up things not accessible by everyone, only that we need to try to find a way for players to feel good about their PC's. To make them feel that their PC's are more than just another face in the crowd (unless that's what they want). People play these games to be something they're not in RL. To be the hero or to be renowned or to become something special. Take that away and it removes much of the reason for being here.

[*edmaster44]

I have an idea. One iÂ’ve been letting sit and thinking on for a very long time, and itÂ’s simply to remove the focus on the factions, and instead, group them by five and making them proxies to the factions. The first obvious grouping would be the triad of law(Guvner, Mercykillers, Harmonium). They could do the leg work of all three factions. Law&Order and processing criminals too, i think it will remove that player barrair of needing to know all of Planescape Lore in order to get into it. Another example could be the Triad of creativity. Senate, Sign of One and hell. Why not Xaosmen. They could have a focus on making fun social events, and musical performances, again, without that Faction ideals looming over them.

[*rapsam2003]

The great thing about that is, you can still have active Faction members (read: some of our current players) involved in the Proxy groups. But then, instead of going, "Oh, well... my faction has 2 people", it becomes, "I'm working with my Proxy group". People like it when there's more folks they feel they can share goals with.

[*Darkrob]

I have an idea. One iÂ’ve been letting sit and thinking on for a very long time, and itÂ’s simply to remove the focus on the factions, and instead, group them by five and making them proxies to the factions. The first obvious grouping would be the triad of law(Guvner, Mercykillers, Harmonium). They could do the leg work of all three factions. Law&Order and processing criminals too, i think it will remove that player barrair of needing to know all of Planescape Lore in order to get into it. Another example could be the Triad of creativity. Senate, Sign of One and hell. Why not Xaosmen. They could have a focus on making fun social events, and musical performances, again, without that Faction ideals looming over them.

I know this concept has been discussed several times and basically agreed upon. It has just never been implemented as no one has sat down to fine tune it so that it works properly instead of just absorbing Factions into others with little for them to do.

Might be an idea to create another thread about it so we can focus on getting it done.

[*edmaster44]

I have an idea. One iÂ’ve been letting sit and thinking on for a very long time, and itÂ’s simply to remove the focus on the factions, and instead, group them by five and making them proxies to the factions. The first obvious grouping would be the triad of law(Guvner, Mercykillers, Harmonium). They could do the leg work of all three factions. Law&Order and processing criminals too, i think it will remove that player barrair of needing to know all of Planescape Lore in order to get into it. Another example could be the Triad of creativity. Senate, Sign of One and hell. Why not Xaosmen. They could have a focus on making fun social events, and musical performances, again, without that Faction ideals looming over them.

I know this concept has been discussed several times and basically agreed upon. It has just never been implemented as no one has sat down to fine tune it so that it works properly instead of just absorbing Factions into others with little for them to do.

Might be an idea to create another thread about it so we can focus on getting it done.

Let's get the ball rolling then.