Just Some Discussion

[*witchinghour]

the only minute clarification to my original post is that I think current situation is a sum of many small things. There's no universal single fix, which is why I'm making some efforts on as varied spectrum

Ooh apologies! I didn't mean to make it seem as the end all be all problem identification and solution :D I find that identifying the problems in the sum, whether minute or grand, to be a good step in finding the solutions. Casting it as an amalgam, while true, can leave it to be confusing as to what needs the support and help with.

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Cliques are always going to be a complaint, on any server, whether or not theres major cliques about. Yeah, as someone who does end up in alot of events and have a clique of very close IC friends, I'd agree its a very good idea to start being inclusive in opening up within character reasons. Even having a day where theres completely new characters coming in and around, or starting a small campaign specifically for new characters. But there is nothing wrong with wanting to play a singular favorite character who you have deeply invested in, and who is someone to demand someone else play something else because someone can't get rp out of a character due to past actions and consequences. Taking a break from a Main is fun and good, but hearing "You should and ought" really kills it. But I'll still stick to my previous comment about initiative. No clique is going to invite you out if you just stand there and watch, and to cliques, no one is going to want to get involved without some open spot to speak up in.

Same goes for events, as well. Typically you'll know when something is a player requested personal plot, but otherwise, there plot hooks and standing around ain't going to get you anywhere, cliquey or not. I'll have to defend events a little bit, really. Theres a campaign going on for a few weeks and ending, and an EM can only handle so many players without imploding and exploding simultaneously. A good deal of same-character people end up in an event per say, is because they're around/taking an initiative/or following just to watch the ongoings (I'm guilty of this one, I like watching/providing support what happens most of the time.) Events going on for a while is nothing bad, its continuing a story for RP. But it might only be bad when you aren't included, understandable. No reason to discourage someone's fun time, or an EM/DM who is giving their free time to this server.

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that a character takes responsibility for their actions. If he does not take responsibility, It is god-moding and/or griefering (which is clearly forbidden by rules here as well as on any other worthy RP server)

I think its rather the player who must take the consequences for their/their characters actions. A Character. ICLY. can try and skirt their consequences.

I think Digi has put what else I wanted to say very eloquently, as well. +1

[*Red the Rogue]

Whoa, think we're getting a bit derailed here...

I believe the issue going on goes beyond cliques. In fact, some fingers have been pointed at some players and even EMs accusingly about this that I personally feel are unjustified. This doesn't lead to actually fixing the problem but instead create resentment among everyone on the server.

As someone moderating the Discord server, I've seen enough times where someone claimed that some event or quest was specifically made for one player, despite it both being an open event for anyone to join (right in the Bazaar itself) as well as one randomly created with no player or character in mind. I've also seen another EM get accused of running events for only one clique as well in a very passive-aggressive tone every time it was run, despite it being geared as a specific campaign that the person did not want spiraling out of control due to past experiences, and that the players involved aren't even part of the same "clique". Active event masters, despite having run open events during their time, have now been feeling discouraged to continue due to being constantly accused about something they didn't even do or were involved in.

If it's one thing I've learned from playing NWN Too Damn Long™, it's that cliques tend to naturally form. The problem is when one becomes too exclusive and controls the server, though, which is not something I see on the server currently. Instead, the problem I'm finding a bit more prevalent is a lack of what Mr. O said earlier...

Engaging plotting.

If I'm understanding this correctly, one of the the problems is that people on the server feel nothing interesting is going on or is behind closed doors, which is something I certainly felt most of the year. Stagnation is a big problem and is one of the top reasons why people get bored and leave. I did have a couple plots brewing in my head, one that could be more of interest for others on the server, but it also matters how it's handled and if players actually want to be involved in it (I've seen a lot of PCs walk away from events that were open, so it's not as strange as one might think). I think we should focus on that, as well as identify and work out other problems that occur along the way.

We're not going to solve anything by pointing at people and attempting to publicly shame them or accuse people

[*Rayanne]

Not being in a clique, I'll have to voice some of the same concerns and sentiments as Darkrob and Pellease.

As for open events, I feel participation would help if EM's clearly announced what kind of players would fit into their plot/event.
I had to walk out of an event recently because it turned out to be something that went completely against the ideology of my character. I'm not going to change the personality and motivations of my character just to chase an event, no matter how exciting it is - although I do understand if other people don't have the same aversion.

I don't mean to keep banging this drum, but the first time I tried to hold an event and get a plot going, I was rewarded with having my character murdered, effectively putting an end to that event-chain. Didn't exactly leave me wanting to try again.
What I mean to say is: I realise it isn't the sole responsibility of DM's/EM's to keep the server active. We're all in this together, players and event-meisters alike. We shouldn't be actively trying to push other people off the server.

[*Mr_Otyugh]

Some good stuff in this topic! :D

Couple of things that I'd like to dabble are...

I'm not going to take any stance to accuse people of cliques. I'm instead inclined to work on against the perception of cliques. I think one of the better ways to do that is by providing and utilizing public services... if you offer your services to theoretical everyone ^{(timezones or other player accessibility issues will always affect things)} or at least have a relatively accessible public criteria for them, then surely that would ease off on the idea of cliqueish feeling/perspective. To that end, it might be a good idea to have a bit more IC public marketing, make it easier to have characters meet each other for the variety of reasons, doesn't need to be material goods being sold, as much as services even. Just a thought.

If you're part of a faction, promote the faction ideology openly? Things of that nature. For example one public issue currently is: where are all the enchanters? I do know some characters are enchanters, but my characters don't... making it rather awkward to try to guide people to them. Of course I understand not everyone wants to publicly market those things, but mayhaps do something more casual like add it as a chant? That way it's a subtle possibility rather than active marketing for an odd encounter here or there.


Should characters adjust to fit in to events, or should events adjust to fit the characters? I'm going to say unhelpfully: yes. To open that up a little, I think both sides should somewhat adjust to fit in one another. Uninterested players are a poor motivation for EMs, and non-immersive events are a poor motivation for players. But at the same time I think it's better to have events have a fair participation numbers, and use that opportunity to make some constructive dialogue how to maybe handle things you didn't feel sufficient in the future.

I, myself, personally think that it's a better way to help getting the kind of events you want, than have events go into waste with no or low participation. I usually have a policy of not joining events if there's already a lot of characters, unless it's something my character would really do. And if there's low participation, I'll have my character join and instead adjust to fit in. I'd rather encourage more future events with that, than the opposite of it.


As for policing other peoples RP/lets call it "elitism" or other variations of "Only my way of roleplay is acceptable" beliefs, well I'm going to put those frankly: there are a lot of ways to roleplay, and a lot of those are valid also. If the rules are being followed, then it is likely fine. If it is found disruptive, you can always try to discuss about it or mention about it to DMs to check, but it is always better to not sound too judgemental about those. Seldom people are actively working to annoy one another, usually it's more of a passive thing that gets on nerves, and it's not that well clarified what is the cause of it either.


Oh and Taihou mentioned that sometimes characters don't seem to react correctly to old acquintances. I'm probably guilty of this, I do play plenty alts and I can't always remember who has and what relations, so I tend to go with the side of caution so as to not metagame and just go with "yeah we've probably never met" unless the other character corrects me in which case I re-adjust again.

[*Hydra]

but hearing "You should and ought" really kills it

It never was meant as anything else than a "recommendation" :rolleyes:.

I was going to post more on the current topic, but I guess it's probably going to offend someone for some reason. That's why every attempt to have a positive debate on these forums get into a toxic waste of people accusing each other instead of... I play the game and try to do something? The main issue is that in this game the most precious resource or currency is attention, people who do not get any or less feels left out and frustrated, while those who get plenty do not always give it back. -_-

[*Mr_Otyugh]

Post you did though! :lol:

I'd rather skip past this phase, so lets get down to "We all suck at roleplay, especially Mr_O! Screw that guy, he's awful at RP!" alright? Great! Can't change the past anyway, might as well focus on future and not lob everything at a couple individuals shoulders. What we need is an ant effect where everyone does a little.

I do have something in mind on that end, but I'm going to need a little more time to really make a coherent plan.

[*Pellease]

*Sits there for a while his arm fidgeting, jerking about for a before finally shooting out extended into the air. All the doubt on his face and the shifting emotions settling into resolve.*

Hail Hydra!

If we're looking to improve the experience of characters on the server but are unable to hear the experiences that people are expressing we're not going to be able to address the things that are driving people away.

With one exception no one's been named in all this talk. (And that was more about character shut ins.) So no particular player has been accused of anything. Hence no need to get defensive. I'm not making it up when I say the biggest complaint I've heard over and over again is about cliques.

So lets become aware of this as a community and all address our ways of acting.

As far as events go, it was suggested we see the strategy used by people who are often involved in events and this brings me to another subject.

Honestly, I don't know how all these events get started. Some run great at grabbing just whoever is there and running with them. I've seen this create new bonds between characters and cause a lot of future RP because a EM or DM successfully took a mixed bag of people and put them through hell together. (Sometimes literally.)

I've also seen veteran players just walk away ignoring events which explains why some events end up with the same people because no one else is taking up the call. (Which always surprises me when an EM seems to need to beg RP wise to get people to join in lol.)

I've also been told that people won't be accepted into a certain event because it's being run for others which makes sense on the very rare occasions of personal plots.

There's also the aspect of time lines. If EM Square logs in at 8 AM EST every day and only a few other characters are ever there, well then, they're going to get a lot more events and the people who log in at 10 AM EST and see the tail end of things are going to assume it's more clique.

There are also times when veteran players decide to bulldoze into an event. I've been there when EMs very specifically say they can't take too many players without feeling overwhelmed. They'll have maybe 5 players already engaged with the plot hook when a vet with an epic character strolls in and makes the whole thing about them.

Sometimes they even bring their posse which only spikes the amount of people the EM needs to deal with. I've seen relatively new players drop out of events due to their concern for the EM while veteran players take their spot. What messes things up even more is that because they often do this with epic characters they've just jacked up the level range on the whole party.

I think we need to become much more aware of how we are interacting in these larger groups. We need to show some love to new players and maybe take one for the team and sit out it comes to the choice of the newbies or us. We also need to show love to the EM when deciding if a group is too big and take into account our levels and equipment when joining a group of lowbies. It's really no fun as a level 16 when a level 30 hotshot joins the group. You end up as little more than an observer trying to make suggestions to someone who often times acts as your superior.

And that's the jist of it. This isn't a witch hunt.

We're not pointing fingers and saying, "you're clique." What I'm trying to do is bring a sense of mindfulness to our RP and gaming interactions. Mindfulness is just looking at what's there and trying to be aware. In the case above I recognize there are many reasons why the same players or characters can end up in many of the events. Most of those reasons have nothing to do with cliques.

Some of them though do have to do with how we interact with the server and it is through discussions like this that we can become more mindful of our own interactions in order to create a more harmonious community in general.

[*Hydra]

I was basically going to recall last month and how dreadful it was to log with very few chances to get any interaction, seeing other people either logging in only for one campaign or people peeking and logging off. I only had a few interactions that I would deem worthy of interest and they were usually outside of my time zone, as it's not a mystery that the European part of the server is literally dead and that you have to stay up late to get something, which is fine if you have plenty of time, otherwise you're just going to do something more interesting. The only thing that kept me coming back and not seriously consider leaving for places that have more people and more player engagement was to make another character and try to interact differently. That worked and I think it also helped the people I came to regularly interact with as well.

So yes, when your chances of interactions are diminished you try to keep the server alive and enjoyable, and you see a small group of people logging in only for an event, surprise ! it's likely to affect your morale negatively and piss you off.

[*Darkrob]

Ideas and solutions, I like ideas and solutions. Whether they sound like theyÂ’re going to work or are just brain farts that might never get off the groundÂ… ideas and solutions are best. So in the spirit of that, I have another.

We talk about events and how they should be started. ItÂ’s been mentioned that players should be willing to speak up and request events from DMÂ’s/EMÂ’s and I agreeÂ… this is a good thing to do. To that end what I propose is to get a bit more organized in regards to how that happens and how quickly these things get taken care of. Something like this;

A player comes up with an idea for an event (either for them, their group or just in general for the server). They fill out a template (once we design it) that explains everything we need to know and PM’s it to the DM’s in charge of the EM team. That DM then posts it on a new EM forum designed specifically to list event requests. When an EM decides they want to do it, they claim the event (updating the forum to show the event as ‘in progress’). Once the event is complete, they update the thread as complete and then lock the thread. The DM’s could pluck events from the same forum and follow the same updating rules should they wish to do any of them. Not only would this ensure event requests are handled quickly (and not sit unanswered without telling the player that it’s been delayed), they would also keep a record of events for future reference and lore purposes… easily used as reference for plots, background, plot verifications, etc.

Just a thought

[*Tomekk]

I don't have much to add, beyond this: can we please, please have events and stuff announced on forums more often? The 'Up and Coming Events' thread hasn't had a post since April.