Questions Questions

[*Sleven]

Can Terrifying Rage be taken on a non-Barbarian level? It doesn't say it can't on the wiki page, unlike Thundering Rage.

What's up with Sacred Vow? Can Chaotic Good characters take it and still qualify for PrCs? There's literally no mention of this alignment on the page.

The Warlock page says the "Invocation Spell Resistance bug has been fixed", what about the Eldritch Blast bug/feature (ie 10d6+ base blasts ignore SR)? And what about them "new" invocations?

Are there items available with Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, or Epic Spell Penetration? What type of items are they? What are their exact enchantments?

Any hope of getting some more heads from the OC available (ie Callum, Nevalle, Harcourt, Tavorick, Bishop (eyeliner ftw), etc)? Xaltar's human heads are objectively crap and have more in common (anthropologically) with Neanderthals then our current evolutionary state. Don't get me wrong, Obsidian didn't do a much better job with the ones they actually let you choose from. /rant

If you guys made the spell Dimension Door, then why can't it be cast by classes that are supposed to have access to it (besides Wizards and Sorcerers) (ie, Bards, Warlocks (ala Flee the Scene), etc)? I was under the impression that this server wanted to make things closer to PnP?

Maybe I'll think of some more, but that's all I got for now.

EDIT: Another question... Does Natural Spell allow Druids to cast spells while under the effects of Shapechange? I know some PrCs did this (like Kaedrin's).

EDIT2: While asking about Druids, I might as well go all the way and ask what animal companions are available and if I could get stat progressions for them similar to the information available on the NWN2?

[*Lucadia]

For the moment, sacred Vow has no use for CG Pcs, but that may change in the future. I wouldnt wait on it though.

Spell penetration items exist, Spell Pen 2 and 3, cant comment .

Bards can cast Dimension door here. Not Warlocks. bit search on our search function turn up several threads about why Warlocks are not getting it.

Druid: No casting in shapechange, you was exceptional form, get the 25 wisdom and have magical beast feat.

animal companions not been changed here. Wildshape /has/.

[*Ceremorph]

Sacred Vow: at this time, because of how the engine determines alignment, it can be taken by anyone who is not evil. However, if you are not LG or NG, allowing you to use it as a prerequisite for the Slayer of Domiel or Celestial Envoy prestige classes, it's really just a bad version of Devout, which is what you should take if you want the bonus to will saves.

[*Sleven]

Okay, that answers a few of my questions, but not all of them. I'd like to know about those as well.

The reason I'm asking them is because their answers have not been explicitly stated anywhere on the wiki (like the Sacred Vow question).

Spell penetration items exist, Spell Pen 2 and 3, cant comment.

Would like some further details on this, as my original question indicates.

Bards can cast Dimension door here. Not Warlocks. bit search on our search function turn up several threads about why Warlocks are not getting it.

Doesn't say in the spell description on the wiki that Bards can take it, should be updated if this is true. What about clerics with proper domains?

As for Warlocks not having access to it... I assume it's because they can cast it as many times as they want? Seems foolish for a Tier 4 class that might be considered a Tier 3 in the NWN2 environment. Being able to cast something as many times as you want =/= power. In fact, I'm not sure why unlimited casts of Retributive Invisibility is allowed on this server if the true version of Flee the Scene isn't. Retributive Invis is far more powerful.

Druid: No casting in shapechange, you was exceptional form, get the 25 wisdom and have magical beast feat.

animal companions not been changed here. Wildshape /has/.

Speaking about Wildshape, this reminds me of some other questions. Has this been implemented the same was as NWN2? Eg do the same stats translate and/or not translate? Want to know if it still sucks.

[*Mick64]

The Warlock page says the "Invocation Spell Resistance bug has been fixed", what about the Eldritch Blast bug/feature (ie 10d6+ base blasts ignore SR)? And what about them "new" invocations?

Both issues have been fixed. The new invocations also check SR normally, if they don't it's a bug and will be fixed.

Doesn't say in the spell description on the wiki that Bards can take it, should be updated if this is true. What about clerics with proper domains?

Clerics don't get it. Bards do, someone who remembers what level can update the wiki. As for the questions of warlocks, it's less an issue of power then an issue of spamming it all the time. (Also, PnP tiers don't really mean anything in NWN2, especially a high-magic setting like Sigil). Anyways, Flee the Scene to DD is a horse that's been beaten to death, resurrected, beaten to death again, raised as a zombie, beaten to death, returned as a ghost and was beaten to death yet again. Best not to bring it up again, for everyone's sanity.

Speaking about Wildshape, this reminds me of some other questions. Has this been implemented the same was as NWN2? Eg do the same stats translate and/or not translate? Want to know if it still sucks.

It's mostly the same as vanilla, AKA a few items only transfer over. And you lose your racial modifiers to attributes (Important if you're playing a high ELC race).

[*Sleven]

Thanks for answering those questions Mick.

Still wondering about Spell Penetration items and Terrifying Rage (see OP).

Guess people are shoving my male human head outburst under the rug. *shrug* Should at least see Startear's head though, by OC lore he was a resident of Sigil. ;)

(Also, PnP tiers don't really mean anything in NWN2, especially a high-magic setting like Sigil)

With a +5 cap, Sigil is a mid-magic world by NWN2 standards (the OC allows +5 with up to +8 on select stats/items, you guys don't even allow the select +8). Heck, it's even mid-magic by level 20 cap PnP standards. Putting it in context of epic level PnP, it'd be considered low-magic at best. And besides, the tiers are already incorporating available items in their power scale.

As far as the actual ranking of classes into tiers goes, they translate extraordinarily well. Most of the classes are in the same order from top to bottom even if a few tiers would need to be removed due to limited class and ability selection. The only major difference is that spontaneous spellcasters are actually just as good as prepared thanks to a limited spell selection and a poorly implemented school specialization feature, so they join their counterparts in tier 1. I might move Druid&Spirit Shaman down to 2 due to their lack of any real magical defenses in NWN2. Definitely push Fighter up to 4... but beyond that, the rest stays pretty much the same. Even Warlocks being in 4.

Anyways, Flee the Scene to DD is a horse that's been beaten to death, resurrected, beaten to death again, raised as a zombie, beaten to death, returned as a ghost and was beaten to death yet again.

The fact that it has been brought up so much should probably serve as a message to the designers on your server.

I can't speak for other people, but I've always been an advocate for adding more features and possibilities to a game. Taking away a feature in place of a haste spell with a 5 round cap works against that in my mind. In a perfect world they'd get the original spell, which caps the range at 100ft and includes a major image decoy and there would be a new spell in place for the old flee the scene, in case someone still wanted that option.

Travel domain clerics not getting it either is a real :( :( :(

Best not to bring it up again, for everyone's sanity.

I hope that's tongue-and-cheek or an opinion only shared by you. Because if other people view discourse on server features this way--I'd rather know now. In case I'm wasting my time in considering being a part of this server.

[*Alersia]

There are a few robes with spell pen. The best has +3 all saves, +5 AC +5/6/7 spellslots, SR and spell pen feat.

Edit: There seems to be a staff with greater spell penetration.

[*Mick64]

True, it's low magic compared to PnP and the OC, but it's high magic compared to the standard of NWN2 servers.

As for tiers, druids are one of the worst classes right now, some of the most OP builds are based on classes like monk, paladin and even fighter (or rather, weapon master who's really just an extension of fighter). PnP tiers don't really fit because PnP tiers (especially high tiers) are all about how many different -kinds- of problems you can solve, and in how many different ways. In NWN2 tiers are based on how good you are at killing things.

As for Flee the Scene, it was partly tongue-in-cheek yes, but also somewhat true. Feel free to dig up the old topics and see if there's an argument that hasn't been put up, but it's been discussed very extensively both in public boards and staff section. You're free to discuss it, but everything's been said so many times before that you'll probably talk in an echo chamber.

[*Sleven]

Lol, at this point I'm just going to assume that no one plays Barbarian, so my question about Terrifying Rage can't be answered by anyone who doesn't have access to the server code.

There are a few robes with spell pen. The best has +3 all saves, +5 AC +5/6/7 spellslots, SR and spell pen feat.

Edit: There seems to be a staff with greater spell penetration.

Yes, this ^, that was akin to what I wanted to know. And I thank you for the info.

As for tiers, druids are one of the worst classes right now, some of the most OP builds are based on classes like monk, paladin and even fighter (or rather, weapon master who's really just an extension of fighter). PnP tiers don't really fit because PnP tiers (especially high tiers) are all about how many different -kinds- of problems you can solve, and in how many different ways. In NWN2 tiers are based on how good you are at killing things.

What are you talking about? Druids are plenty strong. Sure they suffer a bit relative to other casters in NWN2 due to their limited useful spell selection at spell levels 0-3, but that doesn't make them weaker than non-casters.

A Paladin, Monk, or Fighter (of any variant) trying to go toe to toe with a Druid in NWN2 is going to get curbstomped. I'm not sure what Druids you've been playing with, but Druids are plenty powerful because they are a level 9 spellcasting class with spells allowing them to handle physical-based classes with ease. Not to mention, they can get an animal companion that's just as strong as all 3 of those physical classes with minor feat/spell investment. The only classes they are behind are the cleric/favored soul and wizard/sorcerers. And even then only because they don't have the spell list to adequately face other casters with access to level 9 spells and metamagic. (Heck I'm doing an OC playthrough right now where I'm an optimized Kaedrin's HiPS melee and I'd still put my money on a non-Kaedrin's Elanee with 20 stock Druid levels.)

Monks and Paladins are good for a dip at best and deserve their place in Tier 5, even in NWN2. Just because 1 level of Monk makes a Druid stronger doesn't mean the Monk's the one supplying the power. Same for Paladin dips for CHA to saves bonuses or Divine Might. You have to look at power based on the acting/primary class. A build with 16 levels of Monk or Paladin as its base will always get outdone by a Fighter or Rogue with the same 16 levels unless said Fighter or Rogue botched their build. There's only a few instances/opponents where the Monk or Paladin primary will do better, and bugged Flurry in NWN2 doesn't make up for the Monk class as a whole.

The tiers hold true whether it's trying to kill things or handle a diverse amount of threats. Nothing trivializes all of the game's threats better than a caster. Furthermore, casters still get stuff like Knock and Find Traps while having abilities that allow them to take no damage from them. They can also take conversation skills, etc just as well as most other classes.

In short, the tiers have translated fine because the designers wanted to try and bring the best representation of the original PnP classes they could. In the end the power scale worked out about the same.

As for Flee the Scene, it was partly tongue-in-cheek yes, but also somewhat true. Feel free to dig up the old topics and see if there's an argument that hasn't been put up, but it's been discussed very extensively both in public boards and staff section. You're free to discuss it, but everything's been said so many times before that you'll probably talk in an echo chamber.

I wouldn't know where to start with a search for the topics. But I will say this, my "argument" would be based primarily on fun, good game design values, and even elements of balance. Even though balance would be a minor part of my argument, Warlocks do suck when put up against any other caster class in NWN2 (even Bards) and hey, you already made the spell and gave it to all of them.

The fact that it's supposedly been discussed so much, has sentiments similar to yours surrounding it, and still hasn't changed doesn't bode well for me. But maybe I'm just being biased in my assessment of people who tend to disallow things for arbitrary or personal reasons.

EDIT: I suppose you could throw out some kind of AI argument, but in a game with tons of AI exploits that actually allow you to kill your enemies safer/quicker/easier, I fail to see how adding another, less effective, one is going to be game changing.

Anyways, my 2cents.

[*Ceremorph]

Just to jump in with my two cents, but a lot of what you're saying there makes sense, but it utterly predicated on one thing: you're playing alone. Yes, casters definitely are the best solo grinders, but when you start to form a party, that's when things get interesting... and our server's adventure areas are primarily designed with parties in mind.

And there is nothing more awe-inspiring than a melee-specific build who's been buffed to the gills by a caster. A high-STR frezerker/weapon master combo can shred through almost anything with the right set of buffs (always funny to see the Hulking Hezrou go down in one round), the damage numbers flying up the screen when a Kaze build attacks puts an IGMS-spamming mage to shame, and I can speak from personal experience that a well-designed archer can, with only a simple Protection from Evil, tear through the Abyss (or Carceri, for that matter) for hours without taking a single point of damge.

So when you start to say certain classes are at a disadvantage, what they really are is at a disadvantage when ALONE (and not equipped with the right gear).