Ra simply facepalmed as another argument broke out, quickly taking the initiative as Emila finished, rising to get his points across.
"It seems we 'ave two main problems in helping the Hive. Part one is how th'Triad refuses to acknowledge the need for chaos in this city. Face it, this ain' Arcadia or Mechanus, yer in the center of it all and ye need tae have both. Deny tha', and yer just insultin' the Xaoisect here who ye jus' so happened tae defend an hour ago or the Lady in her grand vision o' how the city should work.
The second part is their unwillingness tae let the factions who reside over th'Hive tae handle its matters. Why, I ask? Th'Bleakers are all 'bout helping th'less fortunate in their own way, an' the Dusties don' care about morality any more than th'Sodkillers do. Whilst I do not necessarily agree with Mauric's idea tae simply destroy everythin' that's not helpful, ye 'ave tae admit he has a point for ye can't create a foundation on a piece of earth full of weed and rock.
On th'other hand, the idea of trade schools was put forth. The Fated would support this initiative, as we are already plannin' tae do such. An' no, before ye point out that it's charity, bear in mind our reason... we want to train a workforce tha' can pay its taxes.
He grinned at the last words, sitting back down.
Faction Summit
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*Selebius
- Posts: 1073
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Hasclaan nods, takes some notes but seems pleased with the answer of the dustman. He catches the note, thinks it pretty, then answers.
"What is it you suggest then? Keep the Harmonium? Organize the strongest gangs into neighbourhood militias? Caring for something is rarely enough to change things. So far I heard a lot of touching words from those caring but not much that is doable.
Why not counter the Dustmen and Doomguards proposal with one of your own? Being against something without offering alternatives is rather easy."
However he nodded in agreement to what Ra said.
"What is it you suggest then? Keep the Harmonium? Organize the strongest gangs into neighbourhood militias? Caring for something is rarely enough to change things. So far I heard a lot of touching words from those caring but not much that is doable.
Why not counter the Dustmen and Doomguards proposal with one of your own? Being against something without offering alternatives is rather easy."
However he nodded in agreement to what Ra said.
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*DarkArc
- Posts: 254
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
"It isn't very often that a Xaos will speak as a voice of reason," said Charae, amused. "If she is true to her faction, then she is doing what she feels is the most chaotic thing to do since one of the representatives of the Triad here appears to be supporting genocide." She looked at Hasclaan pointedly.
"But let's humor this for a moment since we are speaking hypothetically. The Fraternity says that there should be no exceptions for the law and I agree. As the Fated pointed out, chaos needs to have a foothold in this city too. So if we are talking about giving wards over to the factions that reside in there, then how about this:
You give the Indeps the Great Bazaar and remove the Harmonium. You give the Clerk's Ward to the Sensates, the Signers, and the Ciphers, also removing the Harmonium. You then give the Lower Ward to the Godsmen and the Athar, which would also remove the Harmonium. And finally, the Lady's Ward is patrolled by the Harmonium, Guvners, and Mercykillers. On the plus side, at least the Fraternity will have a good excuse to get out of their offices. Stretch their legs a bit from all that desk-driving."
She then looked at the Dustman.
"And by your own logic, you can't prove that the Dustmen are not doing these things, but I am glad you pointed out you agree that the Harmonium are struggling in the Hive. This leads me to a counter offer of my own."
"There was a time not long ago when the Harmonium and Mercykillers worked together splendidly. I recall a number of operations I had the pleasure of working alongside Measure Chari. Instead of removing the Harmonium and putting too many new hands in the same pot, I recommend we reinforce the Harmonium with the help of the Mercykillers, and the Guvners if they so wish."
"With the right amount of the same training that you would offer the Dustmen, Doomguard, and Bleakers, the Red Death can compliment Harmonium forces, walking side by side along with them in the streets and aiding their investigations. Due process would still be followed and the factions that reside in the Hive ward would not have to go against their own philisophies. The Doomguard will of course still have their role with the Armory to supplement our forces, the Dustmen will continue to be able to focus their efforts with their Mortuary, and the Bleakers can continue supporting what it is they choose to."
"Why and how could this work? As I mentioned before, a Doomguard member shot and killed a Harmonium in cold blood. When one of my Justices attempted to aid the Harmonium by apprehending the murderer, she was stopped by both Ra'zeth and Mauric, them stating that she was 'exceeding her authority', and the Fated even tried to tax her for it. That murderer is still at large because of their actions. This all came about because the line of authority either isn't clear or many just don't care for it as the Xaos said. While we know that the Harmonium's priority is law enforcement on the streets, where does it state that the Mercykillers can't assist them? The Harmonium have enlisted the help of adventurers to help with their law enforcement, so why not something of a more permanent and professional nature? This is assuming that the Fraternity cares about law and process and are not just supporting the Dustmen and Fated for personal gain."
"As the representatives of the Harmonium have been silent, I would be interested to see what the Harmonium has to say to this. I think they would benefit if a few units from the rest of the Triad of Law worked closely alongside them. As the Dustman pointed out, the Harmonium is only one faction. The Triad are three factions, yet only hold one of them as being the martial arm of the law when there could be two. Just something to consider."
\\Oh and if we are assuming that the Harmonium sent no one, please let me know OOC as my character wouldn't talk to an empty chair. If the Harmonium are there, could a DM control one as an NPC? It's odd that they're talking about stripping the Harmonium of responsibilities and the Harmonium haven't said anything.
"But let's humor this for a moment since we are speaking hypothetically. The Fraternity says that there should be no exceptions for the law and I agree. As the Fated pointed out, chaos needs to have a foothold in this city too. So if we are talking about giving wards over to the factions that reside in there, then how about this:
You give the Indeps the Great Bazaar and remove the Harmonium. You give the Clerk's Ward to the Sensates, the Signers, and the Ciphers, also removing the Harmonium. You then give the Lower Ward to the Godsmen and the Athar, which would also remove the Harmonium. And finally, the Lady's Ward is patrolled by the Harmonium, Guvners, and Mercykillers. On the plus side, at least the Fraternity will have a good excuse to get out of their offices. Stretch their legs a bit from all that desk-driving."
She then looked at the Dustman.
"And by your own logic, you can't prove that the Dustmen are not doing these things, but I am glad you pointed out you agree that the Harmonium are struggling in the Hive. This leads me to a counter offer of my own."
"There was a time not long ago when the Harmonium and Mercykillers worked together splendidly. I recall a number of operations I had the pleasure of working alongside Measure Chari. Instead of removing the Harmonium and putting too many new hands in the same pot, I recommend we reinforce the Harmonium with the help of the Mercykillers, and the Guvners if they so wish."
"With the right amount of the same training that you would offer the Dustmen, Doomguard, and Bleakers, the Red Death can compliment Harmonium forces, walking side by side along with them in the streets and aiding their investigations. Due process would still be followed and the factions that reside in the Hive ward would not have to go against their own philisophies. The Doomguard will of course still have their role with the Armory to supplement our forces, the Dustmen will continue to be able to focus their efforts with their Mortuary, and the Bleakers can continue supporting what it is they choose to."
"Why and how could this work? As I mentioned before, a Doomguard member shot and killed a Harmonium in cold blood. When one of my Justices attempted to aid the Harmonium by apprehending the murderer, she was stopped by both Ra'zeth and Mauric, them stating that she was 'exceeding her authority', and the Fated even tried to tax her for it. That murderer is still at large because of their actions. This all came about because the line of authority either isn't clear or many just don't care for it as the Xaos said. While we know that the Harmonium's priority is law enforcement on the streets, where does it state that the Mercykillers can't assist them? The Harmonium have enlisted the help of adventurers to help with their law enforcement, so why not something of a more permanent and professional nature? This is assuming that the Fraternity cares about law and process and are not just supporting the Dustmen and Fated for personal gain."
"As the representatives of the Harmonium have been silent, I would be interested to see what the Harmonium has to say to this. I think they would benefit if a few units from the rest of the Triad of Law worked closely alongside them. As the Dustman pointed out, the Harmonium is only one faction. The Triad are three factions, yet only hold one of them as being the martial arm of the law when there could be two. Just something to consider."
\\Oh and if we are assuming that the Harmonium sent no one, please let me know OOC as my character wouldn't talk to an empty chair. If the Harmonium are there, could a DM control one as an NPC? It's odd that they're talking about stripping the Harmonium of responsibilities and the Harmonium haven't said anything.
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*Tomekk
- Posts: 855
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Ra'zeth glared at the Mercykiller with burning eyes, but otherwise kept a calm demeanor.
"In addition to what the Dustman said, I'd also appreciate if ye'd leave out personal attacks when one of your dogs was not treated the way ya taught 'em to be, Factor. I could also say a lot of not-so-nice things about yer lot, but I'll refrain from it because we came 'ere as adults, not children... besides, I'd be ashamed if me ally had tae tell me that I should behave more than once."
"In addition to what the Dustman said, I'd also appreciate if ye'd leave out personal attacks when one of your dogs was not treated the way ya taught 'em to be, Factor. I could also say a lot of not-so-nice things about yer lot, but I'll refrain from it because we came 'ere as adults, not children... besides, I'd be ashamed if me ally had tae tell me that I should behave more than once."
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*Hydra
- Posts: 554
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Kala finally spoke.
- Charae's idea has its merits, but I may question, again if the anarchists are really the actual representative of the Hive and if they wanted to have a seat here, they'd had asked for it a while ago. Indeed, I find it quite amusing, for someone who grew up in the Hive to hear so many voices claiming that this faction or this faction actually controls it, not even the anarchist do and they know it. The hive is its own beast, it has survived for centuries, saw different factions wandering its streets and still exists, its people still strive for their living. Rebellious children of the Higher wards are as much likely to join the Rev's than those of the hive. However the Hivers join their ranks because they are hungry, angry about a government that does absolutely nothing for them.
This is why I want the factions to act as a government, private initiatives are not going to solve the problem just cause more competition and strife we are already witnessing in this debate, as most seem only to be willing to push their own agenda through charity. If you want to do so, you do not need this council... just do it. My goal is to send a positive message to the Hivers, why ? Because this may perhaps ease a bit of the tensions, a drop in an ocean you'd say, that is why I recommend to be very pragmatic. Let us first repair a few streets and make some wells functional again so we do not waste too many resources, then we'll see what happens and if we can continue.
- Charae's idea has its merits, but I may question, again if the anarchists are really the actual representative of the Hive and if they wanted to have a seat here, they'd had asked for it a while ago. Indeed, I find it quite amusing, for someone who grew up in the Hive to hear so many voices claiming that this faction or this faction actually controls it, not even the anarchist do and they know it. The hive is its own beast, it has survived for centuries, saw different factions wandering its streets and still exists, its people still strive for their living. Rebellious children of the Higher wards are as much likely to join the Rev's than those of the hive. However the Hivers join their ranks because they are hungry, angry about a government that does absolutely nothing for them.
This is why I want the factions to act as a government, private initiatives are not going to solve the problem just cause more competition and strife we are already witnessing in this debate, as most seem only to be willing to push their own agenda through charity. If you want to do so, you do not need this council... just do it. My goal is to send a positive message to the Hivers, why ? Because this may perhaps ease a bit of the tensions, a drop in an ocean you'd say, that is why I recommend to be very pragmatic. Let us first repair a few streets and make some wells functional again so we do not waste too many resources, then we'll see what happens and if we can continue.
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*MimiFearthegn
- Posts: 762
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
"Almost everyone seems to agree here that keeping the peace in the Hive is hard, and that the Hivers won't react well to increased outside force. So why, exactly, do we continue to discuss possible ways to increase patrols in the Hive? Are we seriously using Kala Ta'Kan's charitable proposal as an excuse to grab power and commit mass murder?"
Sasha's eyes flashed blue with indignation as she glared across the table at . . well, really everyone except the Godsmen, Fated, and Xaositects.
"I have heard no reason to believe that the scenario is any different regardless of whether we send in Dustmen, Harmonium, Doomguard or Mercykillers."
She turned to the Guvners, "Extending help to the people in the Hive interested in bettering themselves does not in any way stop the course of the law. Nor is it an impossible impractical task. There are plenty of people who understand the Hive, who grew up in the Hive, and who have since managed to do better for themselves, who could help guide such projects. We have one of them sitting with us right now - " Sasha nods to Kala " - It just takes time, and will."
"Leaving all charitable efforts in the Hive to the Bleakers and the Weary Spirit is merely rejecting the proposal in favor of the current situation. Everyone here seems to agree that there is a problem with the current situation. The Bleak Cabal performs the important public service of keeping crazy people off the streets, but their Gatehouse is, quite frankly, as terrifying as the prison.
"If we put the Dustmen in charge, we are at best maintaining the status quo; the Dustmen already have their collectors all over the ward, and could be maintaining order in the absence of the Harmonium if they wished. At worst, we are condemning everyone in the Hive to a slow death. Not only is this violating the rights of the Xaositects - who embody this chaos we keep extolling much better than the Dustmen - it would also be more merciful to let the Doomguard and Mercykillers kill everyone in the Hive tomorrow.
"So, it seems we have three choices: ignore the problem; discuss ways to encourage the Hive to change, as has been suggested; or kill them all."
Sasha's eyes flashed blue with indignation as she glared across the table at . . well, really everyone except the Godsmen, Fated, and Xaositects.
"I have heard no reason to believe that the scenario is any different regardless of whether we send in Dustmen, Harmonium, Doomguard or Mercykillers."
She turned to the Guvners, "Extending help to the people in the Hive interested in bettering themselves does not in any way stop the course of the law. Nor is it an impossible impractical task. There are plenty of people who understand the Hive, who grew up in the Hive, and who have since managed to do better for themselves, who could help guide such projects. We have one of them sitting with us right now - " Sasha nods to Kala " - It just takes time, and will."
"Leaving all charitable efforts in the Hive to the Bleakers and the Weary Spirit is merely rejecting the proposal in favor of the current situation. Everyone here seems to agree that there is a problem with the current situation. The Bleak Cabal performs the important public service of keeping crazy people off the streets, but their Gatehouse is, quite frankly, as terrifying as the prison.
"If we put the Dustmen in charge, we are at best maintaining the status quo; the Dustmen already have their collectors all over the ward, and could be maintaining order in the absence of the Harmonium if they wished. At worst, we are condemning everyone in the Hive to a slow death. Not only is this violating the rights of the Xaositects - who embody this chaos we keep extolling much better than the Dustmen - it would also be more merciful to let the Doomguard and Mercykillers kill everyone in the Hive tomorrow.
"So, it seems we have three choices: ignore the problem; discuss ways to encourage the Hive to change, as has been suggested; or kill them all."
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*Midnight
- Posts: 870
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Emila replies from her seat the glare she receives raises a smile.
"We do have a strong presence in The Hive, we could maintain order today if we wished it as you suggest, but out of respect for the other Factions and the council they make up we would like an official mandate to do so rather than taking matters into our own hands."
"We do have a strong presence in The Hive, we could maintain order today if we wished it as you suggest, but out of respect for the other Factions and the council they make up we would like an official mandate to do so rather than taking matters into our own hands."
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*Krayt
- Posts: 544
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Snapping again he spoke furiously with a tremeling accusing finger pointed at Charae.
"It is strange indeed that you choose to omit that your hound never saw any shot fired. What she saw was one of our recruits bending over a dead patrolman. Leaping into assumptions she immediately used violence to subdue my fellow Doomguard. If we where such bloodthristy monsters as you would have the summit members Believe had we not attacked your mercykiller at sight? What happend next was that she chased the Doomguad up a roof and tragic as it was she saw now other way than to plunge herself into the river. You are responsible. The mercykillers are responsible for that death. Yet here you are harping on about it albeit it has no relevance what so ever to our discussion at hand. Forgetting to mention of course that there was an entire group of Harmonium killed that day, killed by the hivers yet all blame is cast on us on the basis of a wishful assumption."
"As none were convicted of this it makes us innocent despite your personal beliefs a woman of your status should have learned that before she joined the ranks. Yet again you see the law as your personal ladder to seat of Power. A priestess of Lolth can you expect anything else? Or can a devouted priestess stray so far into the domains of structure and lawfulness and still remain a servant such a deity? Only a blind fool would not see the web and the spider in it."
"This smearing campaign is tiresome for all and is only brought up to mar the repute of myself and the Fated Factor. Cease bothering this summit with casting this drivel at us repeatedly."
He turned to Sasha after having calmed down once more.
"We can do much for the hivers. With some education from our smiths they could learn a trade, and if found resourceful we could expand our manefacture into the hive itself offering emplyment. If we were to be given the sterwardship along side with the Dustmen and Bleakers we would also need to recruit local patrolmen. Of course war is still necessary to remove some unwanted elements."
"It is strange indeed that you choose to omit that your hound never saw any shot fired. What she saw was one of our recruits bending over a dead patrolman. Leaping into assumptions she immediately used violence to subdue my fellow Doomguard. If we where such bloodthristy monsters as you would have the summit members Believe had we not attacked your mercykiller at sight? What happend next was that she chased the Doomguad up a roof and tragic as it was she saw now other way than to plunge herself into the river. You are responsible. The mercykillers are responsible for that death. Yet here you are harping on about it albeit it has no relevance what so ever to our discussion at hand. Forgetting to mention of course that there was an entire group of Harmonium killed that day, killed by the hivers yet all blame is cast on us on the basis of a wishful assumption."
"As none were convicted of this it makes us innocent despite your personal beliefs a woman of your status should have learned that before she joined the ranks. Yet again you see the law as your personal ladder to seat of Power. A priestess of Lolth can you expect anything else? Or can a devouted priestess stray so far into the domains of structure and lawfulness and still remain a servant such a deity? Only a blind fool would not see the web and the spider in it."
"This smearing campaign is tiresome for all and is only brought up to mar the repute of myself and the Fated Factor. Cease bothering this summit with casting this drivel at us repeatedly."
He turned to Sasha after having calmed down once more.
"We can do much for the hivers. With some education from our smiths they could learn a trade, and if found resourceful we could expand our manefacture into the hive itself offering emplyment. If we were to be given the sterwardship along side with the Dustmen and Bleakers we would also need to recruit local patrolmen. Of course war is still necessary to remove some unwanted elements."