((sorry this time it is me to be late in replying, week was tiring))
she listened carefully to Ibn as they kept walking, her lips pursing thoughtfully
''Well that energy you say gods drain from their followers it is belief itself? or at least the effects on one's spirit that such conviction produces? either way, the outer planes are manifestations of the multitude of differing beliefs, the abstract made real, for how i understood it. Take the sign of one for istance, that's basically how they operate if i'm not mistaken; but to my opinion they put too much individualism in it, and individualism is just relative and taints the face of 'divinity' itself. not unheard of of signers who would bring other people to believe in things to their own favor.'' *she shrugged*
*she paused a moment*
''Why all this is possible based on belief in these planes of existance i do not know. Perhaps in the prime material and the inner planes it works differently, being those places of a more concrete matter. or maybe they're just more hard to be worked with.
Outer planes being places of spirit, they're more malleable to the will that knows how to grasp that elusive thing that is spirit, aye? of course i intend spirit being a different concept than that of soul, this being specific to each being, while spirit would be even without specific beings, even if each of us can learn of it within our single existance, and thus possibly doing uncommon deeds through it. so a body has to comprehend that before anything else if they want to ascend and shrug off falsities that surround the truth, which may be as well be unintelligible to us as we are in our current form.
Had you ever heard of an exhausting explanation in regard to the rule of three? ''all things come in three'', people say, and they bring examples, but had you ever heard a true explanation as to why it is so?''
*she kept following Ibn through the ruined halls, now and then asking about this or that decoration or architectonical element*
''yes the god whom's best not be mentioned in sigil resided here long ago. and yes portals still exist. after all they exist even out of sigil, where her serenity doesnt dwell. so let us assume those two understood how to grasp a capacity that would control the portals?
More over, portals are one of several different ways to travel between dimensions. a thing that makes them different from, for istance, astral projection and plane shift spells is that portals have an existance and location in a given spot at a given time, ''concrete'' and external to us, thus involving an alteration of the fabric of the planes themselves?
i can't compare portals to gate spells as well. gate spells are but a temporary trick, for how much grand. those can never be persistent.
even those portals built by gatherings of sages and wizards through magic and permanent enchanted structures i see them as different from the portals that exist without need of such material supports and are hidden until triggered. then again, is best to rememeber how portals tend to be enclosed within arch-like structures or visual projections of such archs, even when coincidential.
and the matter of keys, those ''hooks'' that excite the dormant energy of a closed portal to rip and spread the gap in dimensions. keys are always somewhat related to the destination, at least conceptually. is it a mere formality to help memory, or this relation sorto of ''pulls'' the destination's dimension toward the other end by affinity?
Portals also do form by themselves even in places where a strong influence of a plane touches another and-...
*she blinks realizing she has talked of portals quite lenghty by now, thus quiets down, smiling faintly*
''apologies, planar travel is a subject that i like, but i'm still ignorant about it and i may have spoken misconceptions'' *she let Ibn think and answer to all of those points and questions*
A Visit
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((No worries Nano. Awesome post there.))
It took a long moment before he gave her his answer which consisted more of questions than answers.
"The power of thought? Perhaps. Do the gods themselves have the answer to that question? I believe not. If the deity of a water realm venerated as the lord of water would die yet the sea and lakes remain mortals faith may be what made the manifistation and not the element of force they are belived to hold sway over. But there are still questions unanswered even if this would be true. Think if there is no link at all. If the gods need belief what made them gods? The ones presumed to exist before mortals what did they feed on to grow in power? Belief is the heart of all choices, you think a leader will lead you to where you want to go so you follow her or him. Believe someone to harm you and you shun this person. The gods of course wish you to believe in them but I cannot say if this is what grant them the powers. The devils for instance crave the mortal's souls. The gods perhaps is not so diffrent. There is one more predicament to this this theory let us say if belief is what grant them the power why is not a king that is worshipped by masses as a living god able to wield the same powers? Forget a god however and I do indeed believe it will die."
He listned patiently to her lecture about portals without any signs of being bored or disinterested.
"Most knowledgable."
It took a long moment before he gave her his answer which consisted more of questions than answers.
"The power of thought? Perhaps. Do the gods themselves have the answer to that question? I believe not. If the deity of a water realm venerated as the lord of water would die yet the sea and lakes remain mortals faith may be what made the manifistation and not the element of force they are belived to hold sway over. But there are still questions unanswered even if this would be true. Think if there is no link at all. If the gods need belief what made them gods? The ones presumed to exist before mortals what did they feed on to grow in power? Belief is the heart of all choices, you think a leader will lead you to where you want to go so you follow her or him. Believe someone to harm you and you shun this person. The gods of course wish you to believe in them but I cannot say if this is what grant them the powers. The devils for instance crave the mortal's souls. The gods perhaps is not so diffrent. There is one more predicament to this this theory let us say if belief is what grant them the power why is not a king that is worshipped by masses as a living god able to wield the same powers? Forget a god however and I do indeed believe it will die."
He listned patiently to her lecture about portals without any signs of being bored or disinterested.
"Most knowledgable."
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she grins a bit ''not as much knowledgeable rather than just listing a variety of travel means between planes and noting their superficial differences''
''a king worshipped as a living god often is so because he's identified with an actual deity that himself serve. his people worship him not because he is king Jerry, but because they think he is that god impersonificated in his person of king Jerry, i'd think. the king works his people's faith yes, but does so in the name of something that above himself, namely, that god he's said to incarnate. the king will be just a powerful cleric''
they keep walking inside the temple, jall perhaps noticing some other features of the place
''i cannot compare the elder gods, powers or forces to the more younger deities which become and stay divine because they converted people. some powers are said to have generated from the primordial chaos, and others...who knows. and what about those... ''things'' called portfolios, domains, of a deity? all the different aspects of existance itself, they gained some kind of ruling onto. very pragmatical manifestations, archetypical even, as it is how existance works, and yet we can analize and elevate those aspects conceptually too, becourse, they're universal.
Tiranny do exists, for istance. not as a defined material object of course - although some would conceive tiranny even as a quality of some energies or objects or spells, pretty much as we have ''good'' instilled in a paladin's sword. power of belief?
... tiranny, i was saying, as concept and relation between beings. and yet a god of tiranny comes to represent it, to be identified with it by people, if not embody it. but as you would justly argue, if that god dies, would tiranny cease to exists? hardly. another god would take its place. but if not new god promptly rises to take over that domain? would that bring an age of peace and equality on the place where that god of tiranny died? would just its worshipper be wanquished, tyrants decapitated, or tiranny as mentality and intent would vanish from all the people's heart during that age?
let's not forget that a god's behaviour and metality pretty well matches that of their domains. because they fit their domains and thus those they chose or are attracted to, or because the domains they get to rule onto influence them? ''
''how do the wielding of a portfolio works? something invests them of such? or is a mere matter of mastery and monopoly upon those acquireable secrets? maybe both? different deities on different planes may share the same domains, or perhaps they're the same deity under different names...
maybe a god get those domains to incarnate in themselves once they reach divinity *shrugs* either way, gods do battle for this or that domain, is known of deities that would steal a domain of another, and the losing deities would not only see their power weakened, their capacities, but also their conducts. somewhere on some prime, a god who wielded the portfolio of , let's call it, intrigue, lost it to another god, and thus became less subtle in his schemes.
how are such hard to define things even be stolen?? the only answer that comes to me and that doesnt imply some kind of uber artifact, is monopoly upon the secrets, and perhaps, somehow, the very essence or prime concept as it dwells into the reality of existance, of this or that aspect of existance. whatever ''reality'' in truth is. if something that existed priorly to thought, thus is independant to any subject that would make claims over it, thus being objective and materialistic; or came after thought, confirming the primate of individualism and we all maybe live in the imagination of someone or something; or contemporary to thought, which would imply reality is thought and viceversa, but no one has the monopoly over it? or maybe reality needs no thought and goes on by instict and intuition, or accidentally, or it simply follows a chain of causes that runs since ever... eh *she grins again, shrugging* better stop now, is a mess already. what experience seems to show us either way, is that belief and thought does alter reality, guess we cant deny that, my athar friend?'' *curls lips*
''and lastly, wheter the quality, effectiveness of the aforementioned monopoly is equal for any deity or if it depends on their personal capacities, i do not know for sure. granted, if ''monopoly'' is the right word.
i see there's much more left to study before continuing to make assumptions...''
''a king worshipped as a living god often is so because he's identified with an actual deity that himself serve. his people worship him not because he is king Jerry, but because they think he is that god impersonificated in his person of king Jerry, i'd think. the king works his people's faith yes, but does so in the name of something that above himself, namely, that god he's said to incarnate. the king will be just a powerful cleric''
they keep walking inside the temple, jall perhaps noticing some other features of the place
''i cannot compare the elder gods, powers or forces to the more younger deities which become and stay divine because they converted people. some powers are said to have generated from the primordial chaos, and others...who knows. and what about those... ''things'' called portfolios, domains, of a deity? all the different aspects of existance itself, they gained some kind of ruling onto. very pragmatical manifestations, archetypical even, as it is how existance works, and yet we can analize and elevate those aspects conceptually too, becourse, they're universal.
Tiranny do exists, for istance. not as a defined material object of course - although some would conceive tiranny even as a quality of some energies or objects or spells, pretty much as we have ''good'' instilled in a paladin's sword. power of belief?
... tiranny, i was saying, as concept and relation between beings. and yet a god of tiranny comes to represent it, to be identified with it by people, if not embody it. but as you would justly argue, if that god dies, would tiranny cease to exists? hardly. another god would take its place. but if not new god promptly rises to take over that domain? would that bring an age of peace and equality on the place where that god of tiranny died? would just its worshipper be wanquished, tyrants decapitated, or tiranny as mentality and intent would vanish from all the people's heart during that age?
let's not forget that a god's behaviour and metality pretty well matches that of their domains. because they fit their domains and thus those they chose or are attracted to, or because the domains they get to rule onto influence them? ''
''how do the wielding of a portfolio works? something invests them of such? or is a mere matter of mastery and monopoly upon those acquireable secrets? maybe both? different deities on different planes may share the same domains, or perhaps they're the same deity under different names...
maybe a god get those domains to incarnate in themselves once they reach divinity *shrugs* either way, gods do battle for this or that domain, is known of deities that would steal a domain of another, and the losing deities would not only see their power weakened, their capacities, but also their conducts. somewhere on some prime, a god who wielded the portfolio of , let's call it, intrigue, lost it to another god, and thus became less subtle in his schemes.
how are such hard to define things even be stolen?? the only answer that comes to me and that doesnt imply some kind of uber artifact, is monopoly upon the secrets, and perhaps, somehow, the very essence or prime concept as it dwells into the reality of existance, of this or that aspect of existance. whatever ''reality'' in truth is. if something that existed priorly to thought, thus is independant to any subject that would make claims over it, thus being objective and materialistic; or came after thought, confirming the primate of individualism and we all maybe live in the imagination of someone or something; or contemporary to thought, which would imply reality is thought and viceversa, but no one has the monopoly over it? or maybe reality needs no thought and goes on by instict and intuition, or accidentally, or it simply follows a chain of causes that runs since ever... eh *she grins again, shrugging* better stop now, is a mess already. what experience seems to show us either way, is that belief and thought does alter reality, guess we cant deny that, my athar friend?'' *curls lips*
''and lastly, wheter the quality, effectiveness of the aforementioned monopoly is equal for any deity or if it depends on their personal capacities, i do not know for sure. granted, if ''monopoly'' is the right word.
i see there's much more left to study before continuing to make assumptions...''
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"King Jerry? I assume you are famliar with the tale of the God-King Jerrayn. Once a insignificant ruler of a small province in his kingdom he rose to rule the entire landmass of his prime. Legend has it that he could persuade a man to believe day was night and vice versa. His small band of soldiers grew into a army during the war of the Fifty Crowns and by playing the other generals against each other he defeated ervy last one of them. Having conqured his prime he errected his fortress tower on the highest mountain declaring himself the first spledorous half-god ruler over everything under the sky and above the sea. Each household was required by law to have a statue of him and worship him. Did they give their true faith to him? Hardly, they acted out of fear. There is no such thing as purity of faith. Mortals lifts their voices in prayers to get something for themself in this case it was their lives. Was this the source of his rumoured power? I do not believe that. Nor do I believe that he gods used him as a middle hand. I think it all to be cheap tricks and propaganda in order for him to keep his power over his people."
"Even so. These portfolios existed before the gods in mortals. And they are shared by many deities. Even if no god was claiming it, the tyranny in this case it would still exist in mortal minds. Tyrants would still rise to dominate and supress. Even if it is like you believe that the gods are manifistations of the thoughts centered on them though their followers what use would there be of them? The great error of mortals is placing so much faith in the powers of these beings called gods. Did the god of knowledge bring you here? No your own legs took you here because you wanted to visit. It is the same with tyranny. It exists because some beings crave it either from birth or devloping it during their lives. All that the god are doing is claiming to have full rights to distribute it. Which is false."
"The alias of many gods in one, yes I've heard this one before. Why then would some of the portfolios not match or be in direct conflict? It many be true in some cases yet hardly in every. "
"No you are correct belief and thought is essential to our reality. The thef may indeed never have taken place but be a rivaling gods successful propaganda making the followers believe it true and thus turing the worshipers. And I do believe monopoly to be the proper word to use. What is it you try to achive with these studies to learn the secrets of true divinity?"
"Even so. These portfolios existed before the gods in mortals. And they are shared by many deities. Even if no god was claiming it, the tyranny in this case it would still exist in mortal minds. Tyrants would still rise to dominate and supress. Even if it is like you believe that the gods are manifistations of the thoughts centered on them though their followers what use would there be of them? The great error of mortals is placing so much faith in the powers of these beings called gods. Did the god of knowledge bring you here? No your own legs took you here because you wanted to visit. It is the same with tyranny. It exists because some beings crave it either from birth or devloping it during their lives. All that the god are doing is claiming to have full rights to distribute it. Which is false."
"The alias of many gods in one, yes I've heard this one before. Why then would some of the portfolios not match or be in direct conflict? It many be true in some cases yet hardly in every. "
"No you are correct belief and thought is essential to our reality. The thef may indeed never have taken place but be a rivaling gods successful propaganda making the followers believe it true and thus turing the worshipers. And I do believe monopoly to be the proper word to use. What is it you try to achive with these studies to learn the secrets of true divinity?"
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((i'll reply here soon, sorry, just didnt have the mind for it
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(((back on this topic. rejoice kryat! answer when you can, no rush))
''never heard of jerrayin, i simply picked a random name. funny coincidence''
pauses, skipping any other reply about the portfolios as of now.
''i wish to understand true divinity, i wish for improvement.
and, i do not wish for followers *laughs briefly*
i like to think that willing to follow a path of improvement, spiritual and whatnot, is right on its own.
i dont think disbelief in oneself is encouraged here , right? at least not to the point where it becomes harmful to one's self?
what do you athars do once the deception of false gods is down and the field is cleared of all but the truth that you call great unknown. toward where does the path continue? asides from battling gods and their followers?
where do truth lie? outside or inside us? signers seems be only about the latter. i dont like such egocentrism, but perhaps is so because of my perceived flaws, perhaps it holds truths i refuse to see.
you said you can channel divine energy without prostration, that i admire if it is really so. hence i'm curious to ask how you can do so.what aided you in performing divine magics? a centering on yourself ,
or medidation and study about something that you felt existed even without, outside, of you? or finding that ''something'' inside you as well?
tell, if you care to.
''never heard of jerrayin, i simply picked a random name. funny coincidence''
pauses, skipping any other reply about the portfolios as of now.
''i wish to understand true divinity, i wish for improvement.
and, i do not wish for followers *laughs briefly*
i like to think that willing to follow a path of improvement, spiritual and whatnot, is right on its own.
i dont think disbelief in oneself is encouraged here , right? at least not to the point where it becomes harmful to one's self?
what do you athars do once the deception of false gods is down and the field is cleared of all but the truth that you call great unknown. toward where does the path continue? asides from battling gods and their followers?
where do truth lie? outside or inside us? signers seems be only about the latter. i dont like such egocentrism, but perhaps is so because of my perceived flaws, perhaps it holds truths i refuse to see.
you said you can channel divine energy without prostration, that i admire if it is really so. hence i'm curious to ask how you can do so.what aided you in performing divine magics? a centering on yourself ,
or medidation and study about something that you felt existed even without, outside, of you? or finding that ''something'' inside you as well?
tell, if you care to.
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((No worries Nano I am on vacation. Lots of time. Things have change since last though. More should have the chance of include themselves. Hope you are fine with that?))
The old sage in white stroked his beard again regarding the halfling.
"Then Jall of the godsmen why don't you speak of what you now believe are divine? As you have alredy learned the path to improvement is not given to you. A god does not open your eyes and reveal all the truths of the multiverse Before you. They are too afraid to lose their own place. They do not share thye give only as much as they need to make you keep venerating them."
"The power to unlock secrets is wihtin your hands alone. As are improvment of oneself. Is not all life divine? The force of a mind that makes the hand move? A Power did not allow it to pass I made it bacause I willed it." He clenched and opened his hand infront of her.
"As part of existenece what you can divinity resides in me and in you. Truth Jall will within you and without. But this is not for two to discuss. Return to your foundery and bring likeminded curious souls and met with me again at the top of our tower and we shall talk."
The old sage in white stroked his beard again regarding the halfling.
"Then Jall of the godsmen why don't you speak of what you now believe are divine? As you have alredy learned the path to improvement is not given to you. A god does not open your eyes and reveal all the truths of the multiverse Before you. They are too afraid to lose their own place. They do not share thye give only as much as they need to make you keep venerating them."
"The power to unlock secrets is wihtin your hands alone. As are improvment of oneself. Is not all life divine? The force of a mind that makes the hand move? A Power did not allow it to pass I made it bacause I willed it." He clenched and opened his hand infront of her.
"As part of existenece what you can divinity resides in me and in you. Truth Jall will within you and without. But this is not for two to discuss. Return to your foundery and bring likeminded curious souls and met with me again at the top of our tower and we shall talk."
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''what for me are the divine? if you mean the various powers and gods ..*shrugs lightly* some once mortals; some once average immortals; some were the first of their kind. some others...more ancient and complex beings. how they came to be, or where from, not sure, that is where part of the mistery lies. for istance, if one of the principles of existance could ever be selfconscious i guess it' consider itself a god.
and perhaps primeval powers arent that sentiet as we are used to think. a force that acts, yes, but maybe not self conscious *another shrug* ''i guess guvners would like to think of them as axioms, maybe''
and not that every of such beings necessarily need followers anyway, i'd argue.
speculations, speculations....''
she nods ''ok, i'll see who may be interested in attending''
and perhaps primeval powers arent that sentiet as we are used to think. a force that acts, yes, but maybe not self conscious *another shrug* ''i guess guvners would like to think of them as axioms, maybe''
and not that every of such beings necessarily need followers anyway, i'd argue.
speculations, speculations....''
she nods ''ok, i'll see who may be interested in attending''
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