Good Aligned Characters

[*Embersworn]

Yes, BoVD is a bit on the grimderpy side at times (the art and the examples shift too much into over-the-top obvious category), but it's a handy point of reference for DM and players.
It's not Greyhawk From the Ashes or Planescape books, but then... Sometimes it has to be literal to explain things.

[*rapsam2003]

If you looked at my link to BoVD, you'll notice cannibalism is under "fetishes and addictions"...

Why is there a sodding book for that? :blink:

Um, there's not. It's the Book of Vile Darkness, which just happens to cover the concept of evil and has a 2 paragraph section on cannibalism...

I really thought that source book was fairly well known around these parts.

I know about it, yes, but you just made it sound even more cringeworthy by having it describe why eating another sentient being is not nice... :lol:

:lol: :lol: I mean, I didn't write it. Not my fault.

[*Ceremorph]

As mentioned above, you need a long dedication to Lawful acts to turn from Chaotic to Lawful, not just a single action. And I think outsiders changing type if they drift very far is kinda stupid too, but that's what the lore says.

I think here we've got an example of taking something a bit too literally. A fallen planetar does not simply become a pit fiend if he does something that shifts his alignment to evil. It would first of all require that planetar to take up residence in the hells, and even so would be a long-term process, not a sudden "boom, you're a devil now". And I can't remember exactly where I read this, but I'm pretty sure it was in a Planescape splatbook or module.

An easy example is Triel. He rebelled against heaven and became a fallen Solar... but was made one the Nine by Asmodeus, and changed his name to Baalzebul. And over the millenia since, he was transformed into a true Baatezu, but not in the "your form changes to this type" but rather in the "this is your alignment and these are your innate immunities" sense.

However, say that today, an astral deva in her zeal to defeat a demonic infestation on a prime commits an act that causes the genocide of a race on that prime. Her alignment is definitely going to drift to evil, but that's not going to make her a devil. If she begins working towards redemption, the only change is that she will lose whatever abilities are directly granted to her by the deity she serves, such as cleric spellcasting. There may also be some physical change, such as wings turning to dirty grey or raven-black or a mark put upon her by the deity she failed. On the other hand, if she embraces evil because "it works" and relocates to Dis to pursue her vendetta, eventually she will begin to change more dramatically, and over the course of centuries might come to resemble (or even become) an erinyes as the plane changes her, and her subtype would eventually change to Baatezu, with all the positives and negatives that implies, although her base powerset would still remain that of an astral deva. However, if she does such great work in the service of the hells that she's granted "promotion", then she would assume the shape of a pit fiend (a more powerful form, so it would still be promotion) and become a stat-block pit fiend from that time forward.

On the other hand, a Planetar or Solar could only be "promoted" into a unique form (Duke or Archdevil), and would not have that change occur (e.g., Malkizid), but rather still only the subtype change and whatever new powers were granted with the station.

[*Embersworn]

What's so stupid in Outsiders spawned from their alignment changing forms when their alignment changes? It's perfectly logical. They're not truly alive or granted a full extent of free will. They don't have their alignments because they were raised in a specific culture but because it's the essence of which they're made.

I think people need to remember that this is the case when you can't eat a cookie and have a cookie, aka - RP with a succubus model but personality of a Celestial, because Outsiders are inherently inhuman and alien. They're not just humans with perfect bodies and fancy wings.

Yes, RPing an Outer Planar Outsider should be more restrictive than RPing a mortal.


It takes some continuous refusal of redemption and doing evil acts on purpose for Celestials to fall, so yeah. They don't just pop into another form.

The alignemnt shifts they're having on their way down are here to represent the individual willingly abandoning good cause and changing their hierarchy of values.

An angel who drifts out of the "Good" spectrum because he's now a corpse piling crusader archetype won't morph yet. And he still can go back and redeem.

It's when they refuse to change their ways, embrace what was wrong, don't go back to Heavens, show contempt and start acting like a fiend and are eventually cast down is when they morph.

It takes some serious intentional wrongdoing to eventually move from the most pure "Good" into "Evil".


Or vice versa.


Which is also why the reverse almost never happends, because fiends lack any inherit motivation to ever start considering doing selfless things out of a selfless motivation.

[*Embersworn]

Also to point out the "spawned from the plane"... Aasimon, Baatezu, and Tanar'ri actually (with the exception of Erinyes) require a mortal soul to create. Which is what differentiates them from the Archons,

Actually, it's reverse for angels.


Aasimon are spawned from the plane/born from other Aasimon. They're natives.


Archons are transcended souls of dead mortals. Petitioner->Lantern Archon->etc


Regardless of the point of entry, every outer Planar will end being reshaped so many times they'll be almost literally made of their alignment.

[*rapsam2003]

I always found this book and the Exalted deed one pretty terrible and mostly based on a Christian point of view. I'll take Heroes of Horror any time instead  :P

I mean, they're basically written with a "European" style setting in mind (with the connotations of that in mind), like how the majority of Forgotten Realms stuff is set on the Sword Coast, which is comparable to middle Europe.