HiPS - 3... 2... 1... fight!

[*Product of Void]

How exactly are you reaching this 64 listen?

Dispelling or casting mind fog would be the time to boogie as a lurker. Just like you start seeing someone casting amplify.

33 is the base you said 10 wisdom so no stat bonus. so that other 29 bonus were is it from?

[*Lost and not Found]

Level 19 Elven Bard -> Base Listen Skill 22.
Because it is an Elf, add +2 Racial bonus to Spot.
Cast both Amplify (adds +20 to Listen), Clairaudience/Clairvoyance (adds +10 to Listen), and Greater Heroism (adds +4 to Listen).
(Greater Heroism doesn't stack with normal Heroism.)

Inspire Competance at bard level 19 grants +8 to Listen.

It totals down for the 64 points.

And you can increase this amount by getting the remaining 11 levels, through feats, and from items. The listen score of 80 isn't the highest possible you can get.





And do take it into consideration that in here you need to gain consent for PvP. Once the consent is given, it is a the green flag to start doing all the dirty tricks you know. However, not a moment before.

Hippie: Hey-man, I'm like totally wanting to test my build against you.
Hey-man: Oh, give me a minute first.

- The Hippie is wondering if it would be better to back down, but he does want to test his build. After turning himself to glowing ball of power, the Hey-man gives his consent and they start their Epic battle. The End.


Hide, Move Silently, UMD, Tumble, and Listen are all Bard's class skills. Thus the cost for the one Shadowdancer level dib is two feats, it even grants Spot as another class skill. These facts create a character that can use HiPS themselves and "Spot" everyone who tries do the same. Thus, they are able to distance themselves from the Backstabber-Hippie, fling a spell at him, flee and then hide away again. Rince and repeat.

The greatest flaw in that tactic against your build is the existance of lag.



(Take also notice that you can add Will-Save based on hit properties to your weapon.)

[*Mr_Otyugh]

The conversation of consent case seems silly with clear metagaming added in it, and if someone does go like that, you can just walk away and tell them to forget about it if they're trying to ruleplay and be witty. ;)


To sum up the entire case: There are classes/builds that are well suited for seeing hiding people... my only question is... and? Since it is after all by design. Majority still won't see a thing.

Oh and inspire competence at level 19 gives +6 to skills, not +8, but the ending amount is right.

[*Dedic8ed]

Still, you have to admit that HiPS is the single most abused feature in NWN2. The DM's Guide mentions that one cannot hide in their own shadow, and there must be a "source of shadow" within 10 feet. However, the NWN2 engine isn't actually capable of figuring what areas are shadowed and which are not. Now, I haven't played PnP in over two decades (and there was no such thing back in the AD&D days), but I can't imagine any competent DM who would allow this to work on an open plaza in broad daylight. In any open area, the complete and utter defeat of HiPS should simply be casting a light spell upon one's self, which would in turn give no shadows to use for this.

And it really is silly that taking the first level of a prestige class grants this ability, which is easily on a par (or considerably better than) many of the so-called epic feats. It makes sense when the assassin has to take eight levels, but none whatsoever that "hiding while being observed" could be learned with just a single week of training as a shadowdancer to gain that level.

Now, not that I'm advocating seeing this on Sigil (especially since it would bork a character I'm currently sorta considering), but I've seen two methods of making this more realistic. The first, which was done on the Forbidden Dreams server, was to move HiPS to be gained at a higher level. Of course, anyone who really really wants it can get it, but it did negate the "power build" options that take a single level of Shadowdancer for no other reason than gaining HiPS. The other, which is even more draconian, would be to make prestige classes exactly that, and to require something RP-based to be able to take levels in prestige classes.

Ah well, I've said more than I planned to. Personally, I have no problem with the HiPSters unless they choose to use this power to metagame, and think the funniest thing in the world would be to log in one night and every single player is playing a character with HiPS and has hide turned on. The bazaar is full of people, but nobody can be seen!!!!!

[*Lost and not Found]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/light.htm

Light
Evocation [Light]
Level:  Brd 0, Clr 0, Drd 0, Sor/Wiz 0
Components:  V, M/DF
Casting Time:  1 standard action
Range:  Touch
Target:  Object touched
Duration:  10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw:  None
Spell Resistance:  No

This spell causes an object to glow like a torch, shedding bright light in a 20-foot radius (and dim light for an additional 20 feet) from the point you touch. The effect is immobile, but it can be cast on a movable object. Light taken into an area of magical darkness does not function.

A light spell (one with the light descriptor) counters and dispels a darkness spell (one with the darkness descriptor) of an equal or lower level.
Arcane Material Component

A firefly or a piece of phosphorescent moss.

To use that in combat would require making a touch attack and it is not the glowing ball of light that we got in game. It would create a flashlight effect where you succeeded to touch the chap. It would propably just give the Shadowdancer better chances to hide in shadows.

Not to mention how the Shadowdancer in DnD can do shadow jumps. (And you got to love Coup De Grace.)




Back to the discussion with Void.
Greater Heroism lasts for 1 minute per caster level. Two-minutes per caster level if extended. You can expect the bards to have that spell going on 24/7.

33 + 12 = 45. (Add a mask that grants +5 to Listen and it's up to 50. Making the chance to spot you 25% per skill check, and the elf would get to try it 6 times per round. They could further improve their Listen by adding +4 or +5 enchantment to Wisdom into their Amulet of Natural armor.)

33 + 10 = 43 (Add an armor that grants +10 to both MS to get 53. Further increased according to the Dexterity modifier of the elf.)


- Non-elves get only one chance per round to spot those sneaky Hippies.

- Fleeing is forfeiting.

- And after the two remaining spells are casted, your character doesn't have enough hit points to survive against a bard for three or six minutes.

- After simply casting one spell, "Amplify" in this case, there would be 75& chance to "hear" the sneaker per skill check.

[*Tildryn]

*Wave wave.* 3==============================>

[*Lost and not Found]

In addition, here are two pictures of open plaza in broad day light, gotten from google search:
http://whyhyattsville.typepad.com/photo ... c01640.jpg
http://www.olamacauguide.com/image-file ... vel-96.jpg

- Ten feet distance would be rougly the distance of three meters.

As for comparison between the Assassin and Shadowdancer classess, those two classes have different requirements. Especially in PnP. Just take a look at the requirements, it takes a lot more effort to become a Shadowdancer than it takes to become an Assassin.

The PrC's grant bonuses, while they have their requirements. These requirements are there to unlock PrC abilities. Thus I would argue that the process of gaining that one level of Shadowdancer requires more effort than just getting that one extra level. The issue here is that most people role-play that fact rather poorly.

And naturally, if one "first" level class ability is moved to later levels, I would expect the same to be done for all other first level class abilities. The ones to be exempted could be BAB, saves, and hitpoint progression. :rolleyes:

Moving class abilities is not a good solution for preventing something as abstract as use of "Power Builds". Such course of action would just shift the prefferred class combination from X to Y. The first link in the chain of future needs for re-balancing.



Better solution would be that the players stopped trying to solve every IC argument through the sheer force of their builds.



In reply to Tildryn, this is my screw driver.

____________
____.-~` \ \ \ `-
___,-----------'\ __`. `.---- ----`.
-=)))))))))))))))))`___ `__ ~~~~ __` |__ : . ...:::: :
`-----------./_// ' ,...:::::::::'.'
`-./././././././.~

And although Bards become a pain in the behind to kill, especially after reaching epic levels. They do not remain undefeated. At least not in a 'reasonable' low-magic world such as SCoD. The B comes before the D. ;)

[*Dedic8ed]

To use that in combat would require making a touch attack and it is not the glowing ball of light that we got in game.

Casting light on yourself, not the shadowdancer.

And naturally, if one "first" level class ability is moved to later levels, I would expect the same to be done for all other first level class abilities. The ones to be exempted could be BAB, saves, and hitpoint progression. 

There is a point to that. However.... the fact is that shadowdancers get a practically epic-level feat at first level. In a PnP game, yes, it does work like that... however, in order to take the class you need to actually find a shadowdancer and convince them to teach you, rather than simply deciding "whee, I'm a shadowdancer!". Let's compare it to Weapon Master, which has the most stringent requirements (six feats!) of all PRCs yet is for all intents and purposes worthless without taking at least five levels.

However, again, I'm not actually suggesting that we make changes to the class here on Sigil, because we don't have a player base that would tend to abuse this (except possibly in PvM situations, but all's fair when grinding!). My personal gripe with this is about builds that take exactly one level of shadowdancer, and for no other reason than to get HiPS. This is truly a case of "powerbuilding", much like taking exactly one level of bard so as to qualify for RDD (I mean really... Fighter 9/Frenzied Berserker 10/RDD 10/Bard 1 is a completely and utterly silly build... but that's an entirely different topic).

[*Mausman]

aka cheese...I am not fond of it as well, I prefer rp builds. 1 lvl of sd can be good for a build, number crunching wise.

But I agree rp wise, SD should be "trained" though that is a bit hard to play out on a server sometimes.

I believe in common sense though and the majority of the player base I believe prefers to rp over powerplay...with some exceptions, but which server doesn't have those? :)

[*Lost and not Found]

Casting light on yourself, not the shadowdancer.

Sorry, I read your post with my eyes half-closed and replied more according to how the usual light-spell arguments go.

But to continue about light spells, to which body parts would you cast the light spell in order to produce some light? Red Wizards could consider casting it on their bald heads. :D

But in NWN2 it does create that ball of light. One of the charasteristics of light is that it has troubles penetrating objects. Thus the glowing ball of light on top of your head would cast a shadow under you. Thus it would allow shadowdancers to hide in plain sigth as long as they are within three meters to that shadow. You can see this shadow yourself by standing under a single light source in real life.

- In addition, hiding in plain sight is not the same thing as staying hidden.

And would you mind telling me where that "requirement" of a teacher originates? This is the first time I have even heard of it. There is no mention of such in the Dungeon Master's Manual for 3.5 edition.

(For a level six character the ability to inflict the maximum damage is not useless. It could allow defeating an opponent in a single round.)

But I cannot really shake the feeling that what most have against one level "dibs" is mainly due to their own aesthetic preference. I can come up with backstory for an Bard/Fighter/Ravager/Dragon Disciple which would make the previous class selection realistic results of the chain of events.

And to be honest, "Whee, I am a Wizard now" - is a sentance quite common for the 'serious role-players' who want to find another character to make their character an apprentice to.