HiPS - 3... 2... 1... fight!

[*Dedic8ed]

Actually, the 3.5 DM Guide lists training when taking a level as an optional requirement (p197-198), and normally to be done during campaign downtime. However, it really does make sense... especially when that leveling results in the gaining of new feats that may have not been in any way relevant to the player's actions up to that point. And unlike NWN2... you shouldn't be able to rest for ten seconds in the middle of a dungeon, then stand up and declaim "Yes! I know 9th level spells now!"...

And it's not that you can't explain a bizarre powerbuild... it's just that in that case, generally the reasoning has been thought out beforehand, and is not in any way a logical extension of that character's RP. After all, that is one thing that most players of this game (and even moreso, the PnP version) have.... a good imagination. So... explaining that ogre mage druid/blackguard/shadowdancer/sorcerer shouldn't be all that hard.
:D

[*Theban Soldier]

But in NWN2 it does create that ball of light. One of the charasteristics of light is that it has troubles penetrating objects. Thus the glowing ball of light on top of your head would cast a shadow under you.

You can cast light without the orb effect. I always do, because the orb effect can be annoying to look at while zoomed in over the shoulder on a PC. In that case, the light emanates from your PC, say, from his armor or clothes.

You can do the same thing in PnP.

[*Psionic-Entity]

2 cents...

HIPS is in the game, and while in some hands it may be annoying and often plain stupid, we have to deal with it, largely because without it, stealth characters would be unable to fight anything with any chance of success.

That being said, it's easy to tell which players abuse it. Those who emote being able to disappear without considering they may be spotted, people who like to talk from stealth, sometimes even people who claim to be able to hide while flying, hide in your face in an open area, etc. If I see that happening, I usually just ask them where their character is, and most of the time they can't answer without using the words "shadow plane", which is basically a joke. As long as basic logistics are considered (like allowing someone to emote swinging a sword at you immediately after you "disappear," etc.), it can be a non-issue. Heck, my own character has it, but I'd be damned if anyone caught me using it when I wasn't either in combat or standing next to something easily hidden behind or inside.

[*Lost and not Found]

Continuing about the light spell, it tends to fall into the interpretation of whether the whole object begins to glow or just roughly the general area you touched.

Referring to my previous post, It makes the item glow like a torch. With torches I think of flashlights. One end glows while the other end doesn't. And from a medieval perspective, a torch that would emate light from every inch of it's surface would be a floating log on fire.

But let us progress by presuming that it does indeed make the whole item glow as it is. A character casts his or her Light spell on the armor she or he is wearing. Now what happens if this person would be wearing a cloak on top of that armor? And think about the boots too, especially the popular ones with really large linings. Or possibly the shadow created by carrying a shield.

To those who would cast the light spell on each and every item in their inventory screen, consider the surroundings. If you go to the Bazaar in Sigil Main, there are a lot of objects that would cast shadows, even people walking around and standing.

The "no shadows due to light source argument" would work in location that is perfectly flat and infinitely so. (As long as people do not have the wits to drop a Darkness spell to remove the light source. :rolleyes:)

HOW PC'S IMPROVE
The rules in Player's Handbook assume that characters have access to everything they need to advance a level - libraries where they can research new spells, trainers to guide their efforts, and places to practice new skills and abilities. Research and training are not part of the standard rules. They are assumed to be going on in the backround. However, you can control the backround and decide how you want to handle things such as this. Keep in mind, however, that leaving them in the backround is a fine choice.

3.5 DM Guide, page 197.

And on the next page it also states that if you cannot find a trainer it is going to consume two weeks instead of one. (The expenditures remain the same regardless of the case.) With that in mind, I cannot say that there is a 'requirement' for a trainer.

As for what is relevant to players:
For example, running away and not getting hit would be relevant exposure for training to gain such feats as Dodge and Mobility. :rolleyes:

And regarding the previously given class combination; I was not talking about extensions of role-play. I was talking about the base of the role-play. Not everyone has the time to spend 24/7 on the server building up their characters according to the events taken place. It is lot more reasonable to think beforehand what you want to have, and have fun with it.




Now, do tell me all about that HiPS abuse. I'd like to know what it takes to abuse you. ^..^

[*Dedic8ed]

And here, we get into semantics. There is a rock three inches tall on the ground casting a four-inch shadow. Is this sufficient for the six-foot-tall shadowdancer to hide in? Sometimes the intent of the rules has to be extrapolated rather than simply saying "the book says it's so, thus it is so."

As for the bazaar... one must assume, once again through intent, that when one walks through it there is more going on than six merchants, a few commoners, one wandering harmonium guard, and whatever PCs happen to be there. It is a noisy, boistrous place filled with a constant flow of beings and most likely a wall of sound, much like any large market (think the shopping mall during xmas season). I'd think that at just about any time, it would actually be easier to hide there than anywhere else simply because of the constant assault on the senses. I don't care if your listen is 60, it is still wildly unlikely that you would be able to discern the sound of a leather-soled step sneaking up behind you when three merchant's barkers are screaming in your ear.

A previous server I played had a desert setting. My argument then was that standing in the midst of open sands with no gradiation for miles in blinding sunlight... it should be literally impossible for someone to be standing five feet in front of you and remain unseen. For that matter, in a PnP situation I'd fully expect any DM to laugh at a magically invisible character who tried to scamper about hiding in the midst of hostile and suspicious enemies.... simply because the invisible person would still be leaving footprints. Again, intent of the rule rather than wording.

As for abuse... I tend to feel abused when showered with gifts and money. So do feel free to abuse me any time. :rolleyes:

[*Product of Void]

bah as captain Tylor once said "Any child knows the one who runs away wins".

I tend not to care how folks explain shadows dancing, just as long as they are having fun and creating fun.

Its never what is built but what is Role-played

[*Dedic8ed]

Its never what is built but what is Role-played

Thank you. And it can pretty much be counted upon that good roleplayers aren't abusers... and abusers are rarely if ever good roleplayers.

[*Lost and not Found]

I have nothing against semantics. Semantics tell us what is income tax.

And my answer would be yes. The manual simply states that there needs to be some sort of shadow that is not his own. In addition the description mentions how shadowdancers can vanish in the open without actually having anything to hide behind.

The shadow you described may not be big enough for the shadowdancer to lie on his back, but perhaps big enough for him to stand with nothing but the tip of his left leg in the shadow.

I'm more used to the SI units...

- In addition, hiding in plain sight is not the same thing as staying hidden.

As for the footsteps, I'd walk on someone's elses. Using DMFI Follow, perhaps?



And there seems to be bit of an contradiction in the logic behind your views regarding abusers and role-players.

But I insist; Do tell me all about that HiPS abuse. I'd like to know what it takes to abuse you. (It is in plural.)

I'm sorry, I'm not the sort of guy who gets shunned by certain words. Thus if there is actual abuse going on, people should be able to describe what it is, right?

[*Mr_Otyugh]

The way I figure "abuse" in the HiPS is roleplayability... you stand in flat cobblestones that's practically empty and lacking shadows and snap you're gone. How does it seem when thinking with logic? Ridiculous -> Thus it's thought as "abuse"...

What players want is good explanation and not just *snaps fingers* and you're gone... compaired stepping to a corridor with dark shadows and slowly disappearing like camourflage to the said shadow. That's the difference.


If you want something to be handled properly... put roleplay effort in it while keeping surroundings in mind. Not just click a button.

Is abuse proper word?... no. But nitpicking doesn't really work either.
Do people prefer that you still roleplay the actual hiding process? Yes.


And before compairing to invisibility, it has the whole casting process in it rather than just disappearing without any notice. Concept of vanishing to thin air is difficult to imagine and react to when there is no logical reason for it to happen, even if it is magical/supernatural, players like to have even small signs that gestures that they know how to react and continue in such situation.


That would be my conclusion.

[*Lost and not Found]

Thanks.



Still & Silent Invisibility spell. All you need to do is to poke that material component in your pocket. Shame that you can only use one metamagic feat at a time in NWN2.