Aspire To?

[*Mr_Otyugh]

I'll put it plainly like this: If you ever want to get anywhere. Do some work for it. Closed door RP and words in game weight less than actions. Factions don't put people to management duty if they don't seem to possess initiative to 'inspire other faction members' to begin with. Why should your character be a leader if they can't even inspire others to join with them? It's supposed to be the effort instead of BAM I'm leader, follow me!

Secondly, include other players. Why'd you come to multiplayer and only RP with the NPC? Seriously? Multiplayer is kinda gaming type which allows you to play and roleplay with the other players, use that opportunity to build ideas... less trying to get NPC attention.

As for death, it has exactly as much weight as player wants to give it themselves. Believe death is joke? Then that's part of your own imagination. If my character dies part of actual RP, it's the end for them unless someone happens to assist them almost immediatelly. Think perma death on my own character is a joke? :P Then I'm not sure in what kind fo server you've played before.

Limiting players is delusion you've built to yourselves. How is it that you can't change the module? You can't become Lady of Pain in snap of fingers? Have you tried? No?... where did the thought come from then?

[*Rust]

It hasn't really been said anywhere save by yourself that players can't change anything ;P

I've voiced this opinion myself, although I don't think I've posted it. I do feel that ulimately, a literature-based world (versus a variant or homebrew) that strictly adheres to canon is stagnant. The inability to challenge the status quo, to replace Factols, form new factions, or even depose the Lady of Pain leaves us the current state of things.

Which is why any world I've DM'd in PnP, and the two worlds I've created in NWN, all were either homebrew, or variants based off of the literature worlds. Our last server was a Toril . . .but not the Toril.

The best D&D "rule" I ever read, which harkens all the way back to 1st ED, was:

The rules contained herein are but guidelines to follow. They provide a framework around which to build your game.

Just what exactly is canon, anyway? It's someone who's written on the subject and gotten published. It's an author's viewpoint, and the framework he's set up in his novel (or setup by others before him), the stage upon which he's placed his characters. Should any particular author's viewpoint treated as gospel? I'd say, no. Not even Zeb Cook! (heresy!)

Grind levels. Get gear. RP around who's sleeping with whom, or who's giving another the dagger in the back. Now these are still fun to do; just repeating them over and over gets wearying. The argument that players will never be satisfied holds some truth in it. That's human nature.

I also agree that much of the previous is assumed. Has anyone really tried to seize power in a faction? Destroy one (the lastest insurrection by the Anarchists comes to mind) ? Or even challenge Her Serenity? Maybe these limits are simply perceived ones . . . ah, but how much of our game is perception.

I guess what I'm arguing for is flexability. If we can't replace Factols, well, let's make them figureheads more concerned with the "big picture" and have characters that are actually wielding the power and doing the day-to-day running of the Faction. Let's have guilds (Enchanters, Thieves, Merc, etc) who wield some power themselves. Let's have PC's that can actually rise above "Named".

As far as canons and factions go, I did a bit of research into it. According the canon, the number of factions were "set in stone" by the Lady. However, the caveat to this rule was that while this fixed number would remain constant, the factions themselves could be destroyed and replaced.

I also remember the Dustman who rose to Factotum, Cere - well, for a day. Then his title was stripped the next day.

I remember a DM from our former world, who, when accused of favoritism, stated:" Of course there's favoritism; I'm biased in the favor of roleplayers". As a DM I'm much the same way. I lurk about, rewarding Xp for RP, and trying to get that "spark" which will lead to a nice little plotline or quest. There's a mysterious alchemy, a chemistry, between DM's and Players, just like between players and players. Some nights it's just there, others it's just not. Personally, I'm not worried about charges of favoritism; I think it exists regardless, and that it's not a "bad thing". Sometimes as a DM a player or group of players will get those juices flowing. Unfortunately other's don't (or, at least, for that day, they don't). Trying to draw up water from a dry well isn't easy. I have tried and will continue to try to "spread the DM love" around.

This thread was actually borne out of talks Darkrob and I have been having for the last few months or so. I suggested he post his concerns on these forums. Frankly, I find this a great topic and worthy of discussion and debate. I don't think it should be a session of finger pointing, either at DM's or Players. We're all here to have fun, we all have a finite amount of time and resources to contribute. It should be a discussion, not about who's "dropped the ball", but who's willing to pick it up and run with it. So, ultimately, myself is the only person I can really push to improve and do things better. Threads like this make me go "hmmmm" and get the wheels turning in the right direction.

[*cryptc]

The problem is when a player in a year from now finds the server and thinks "oh yes! I really love planescape, I want to play here!" and then finds that he doesn't recognize the setting at all "um... what happened to the signers? killed off in dm event? o.O who are the Warders of the Heart?! new faction!?" and suddenly the interest dies off again...

As much as I like a world that the players can influence, there is a big difference between pnp and a big multiplayer environment... and while I'd applaud some long term large reaching events, maybe even moving of planes or gatetowns or whatnot, I would prefer keeping factions sacrosanct, since a major part of the server background is making every faction home with a public and private area, and try build a stable roleplay environment...

If players don't want to roleplay being in these factions, just making new ones or disposing of the old ones, or get rid of the lady of pain or what not, they obviously don't agree with out major part of server vision... and if majority feels that way, then I'm sure someone can make yet another FR server that fits them, I know I won't.

I mean why attack the very nature of the lore of the setting? ... and by lore I mean the out of the box 2nd edition lore, just so that is mentioned.

It seems to me that players want to be made figureheads for some reason... My thoughts are that factols will be mostly invisible background figures and that the players would run the factions as any other guild on nwn2 server would... does an invisible npc being in charge over them hamper their rp? maybe... but it also provides a reasonable solution when a player ragequits, or does something other that is majorly idiotic.

This whole thread from start to end has been an argument in a non-constructive fashion, and I should really lock it... but instead I will ask a simple question, how would you prefer this server to be run? and why is the current vision of the server flawed?

[*Rust]

I'd like to clarify that my statements are not an attack on Planescape or it's lore; merely questions and opinions. Of course most of us are here because we love Planescape and it's lore; if we didn't, well, there's other worlds and other servers.

The fear that other players would enter SCOD and not recognize things because one or more factions are changed is a valid concern. For myself, I can't see any such changes occurring "overnight". I mean, can you imagine actually trying to destroy or displace the Harmonium? These guys supposedly have an entire planet as a home base! Such an endeavor would have to be a monumental one.

I like the debate and discussion, that's all. Stirirng up ideas on what we, as players, can "aspire to" beyond grinding and gear helps me both as player and DM to come up with new ideas.

[*cryptc]

The simple answer is really: aspire to anything... but be able to accept that some things your character might fail to do... constructive roleplay over long time has a lot easier to convince a dm/admin group than "we want to change everything, but we won't even try unless you say we can succeed"... I will never give a such guarantee.

[*Ravel's Heart]

Having written a few of these threads in my life critical of the DM activity on Server X or Server Y, I understand perfectly where people are coming from. I have said many (if not all) of the same things that are being said here, and to a degree, I agree with most of it.

And, seeing as how I have been relatively inactive as a DM lately, I understand why one of my friends recently asked me, "Are you ever going to DM again?"

Leaving aside considerations like work, family life, and interests other than NWN2, the fact is that DMing a setting like SCoD has its own set of challenges.

But that is not really why I wanted to comment on this thread. At their heart, these threads always come down to one of two things:

1) "My character is stagnating."

2) "My character has something that she wants to accomplish, but I can't do it without DM help."

The second category is far easier to deal with than the first.

Send one of us a PM or post it on a public form.

There are several things to keep in mind, however. First, all of the DMs have jobs or school. Do not expect an immediate response. Second, if you want a deep, involved, multi-stage quest involving multiple players, multiple NPCs, and challenging scenarios...be prepared to wait a good while, especially if your party consists of 5 level 25+ PCs. There are a couple hundred pages of plot/quest material in the DM forum right now.

If there is something straightforward and simple, that is far easier, truthfully.

But if your request falls into the, "How about a way to get my PC a set of adamantine chainmail +5" category, or is of the "How about a plot to murder the Lady of Pain?" variety, you are not likely to get a response.

As for players who feel like their characters are stagnating, the onus is on you, the player, to create situations in which your character is involved in dramatic scenarios. You simply cannot rely on DMs to create that for you.

If you have levelled your character to 30, equipped him with maximally powerful gear, and accrued more wealth than you know what to do with, and you feel as if your character has no direction, then I have to ask what you were trying to accomplish with him or her.

If you spent the first three weeks or month RPing your character with the goal of achieving all-powerful status...you're done. Retire him.

If you had some other endpoint in mind, play to it and then retire the character. If you have no endpoint in mind at all, then that isn't a DM's problem.

[*Cadence]

I don't think I could have said it better than Ravel and cryptc:

(cryptc) The problem is when a player in a year from now finds the server and thinks "oh yes! I really love planescape, I want to play here!" and then finds that he doesn't recognize the setting at all "um... what happened to the signers? killed off in dm event? o.O who are the Warders of the Heart?! new faction!?"

I'd like to point out that the most enjoyable, immersive, and epic RP that I've been involved in did not involve major changes in Sigilan/Planar power structures.... yes there were faction members involved (a Hardhead, a Fated, a Cipher, Indep...etc) but rather than having our characters influence their respective factions as they progressed in the plot, the factions and faction philosophy influenced the characters . Now could that have worked the other way and still have been enjoyable (having characters influence factions)? Sure ... but remember that shaking up the faction status quo is merely one of many paths towards character development. Also keep in mind that Planescape is a big world: you might be a blood who's accomplished a lot - but at any given time there will be someone more powerful than you. The power and influence wielded by the factols of Sigil is often compared to that of deities rather than mere guild-leaders.

(Ravel's Heart) As for players who feel like their characters are stagnating, the onus is on you, the player, to create situations in which your character is involved in dramatic scenarios. You simply cannot rely on DMs to create that for you.

I'd also like to add that the most enjoyable, immersive, and epic RP that I've been involved in did not involve a DM, but was the brainchild of myself (back before I was a DM) and a few other PCs on the server. The storyline progressed for several MONTHS without any DM involvement.

[*Product of Void]

While a player might not lead a fraction they can become the most known or relied upon.

My characters goals?

C1. Recliam something lost in a big adventure dragging other players into it.
C1. Join Sensbanes for multiple reasons.

C2. Regain lost inheritance

C3. Experience life, drink, and feel something.

[*Darkrob]

Being an established PnP DM (for 25+ years) and a NwN1 DM/Admin for a half dozen more... I've seen what happens in mods with little change and little DM interaction... I hope I'm wrong (as I do enjoy the areas and the players)...

The DM team needs to show the players they can make a difference. I don't even know who most of the DM's are as I've never seen interaction from most of them... we're left to our own devices and it's insanely difficult to aspire to anything without official help...


Thanks for the Input Mr. O'. I'll keep your thoughts in mind...

[*Ceremorph]

..and there we have a slippery slope. If people can wind up having positions of "power" within the server, there are accusations of favoritism towards the players who wind up doing so. If not, there are accusations of railroading. Either way, there's going to be someone who feels left out by it. However, let's get into the individual questions.

Would a player be permitted to lead a faction?

As in, becoming factol of a faction? This is unlikely in any sort of permanent way, as it would require the removal of canon characters. Considering that factions have memberships in the tens of thousands (or more), this would be similar to asking if your character could wrest a plane from an abyssal lord. However, the opportunity does exist to rise within a faction, and to all but the highest levels... but because this would require DM involvement and acceptance, it in turn depends on the player. I've been DMing for quite a while now, and have been approached by exactly one person actually looking to advance within their faction. What would this require? Firstly, RPing the faction membership to the point where just about everyone who knows the character associates them as a face of the faction. I know that Otuygh's Cratten may be played by one of the server founders, but he's managed this feat by in-game interaction, not through "I'm a DM" fiat. And from what I've seen, if this were a regular player looking to advance, he'd definitely be a factotum by now due to the things he's done as part of regular RP... but he's not looking to advance.

Destroy established factions?

Again, the size and importance of the factions makes this something we wouldn't want to see, much like destroying an archdevil or toppling deposing a major canon ruler such as Szass Tam or the Simbul, to take FR examples. Also, the current setup of factions is supported by the Dabus and the Lady of Pain. If she's willing to flay one person who's murdered a few people at the bar, don't you think she'd step in to prevent, say, the utter destruction of the Harmonium or Doomguard, if it actually got to that point?

Lead NPC guilds or sects?

This is a far more likely thing. PCs are more than able to form their own societies, and that can be worked into IC power. In fact, this has already been done; however, it would be far more likely if it involved a group of PCs working togther towards a goal, rather than "I want to found a mercanary army! Gimme NPCs!".

Become something more than a simple adventurer that means something?

Absolutely! But there has to be something behind it. I personally have dealt with one player who became the chief spy in Sigil of a massive multiplanar organization, and another who founded a church to Mephistopheles, while recently a group of adventurers stopped a Baatezu plot to kill every demon-blooded being in Sigil, while in another plotline further back the actions of a group of players resulted in the destruction of the Smoking Hammer and subsequent opening of the Foul Olde Spirit and Khazeet's.

What it all comes down to is what the players are willing to do, and what their characters' goals are. This especially applies to anything to do with factions.