A bit of Fussing

[*Tildryn]

[Snipped for brevity]

Eh? That's not what that means at all. It does not in any way, shape or form say that you don't have to roleplay your abilities - and perpetuating that it does is quite simply a warping of a phrase that means something entirely different.

What it says is that building a character well has no impact on the player's ability to roleplay that character well.

A player's ability to roleplay is not in any way, shape or form related to their ability to build an effective character.

Being able to build an effective character does not make someone less able to roleplay.

That is all it says! It doesn't say anything, anywhere that the way a character is roleplayed is independent of their character sheet. It's entirely a study on player capabilities.

I'll repeat it again: The Stormwind Fallacy is a denouncement of RP snobbery that being able to, and optimizing a character is a mutually exclusive ability from a person's ability to roleplay well. It is a counterpoint to the false dichotomy that someone must either be good at roleplaying, or good at building, when these are not mutually exclusive - and in fact, are not related to one another at all. Knowing game mechanics does not make a player less able to roleplay.

Your arguments are attacking the Fallacy based on something that it is entirely unrelated to, based on out-of-context quoting. :P

---

As for 'life experience' gained more from speaking to a Gith, that may be so. But on that same note as Mr Otyugh has pointed out, levels in the game are almost entirely measures of your combat ability. What increases as you gain level, for every character? You gain more hitpoints, you gain more BAB, you gain more powerful spells and class-specific combat abilities. You have to ask at this point, how did the conversation with the Gith contribute to these? It's a very small contribution to the gains of the level as a whole, maybe a skillpoint in one of the social skills at best.

opâ‹…tiâ‹…miâ‹…zaâ‹…tion
  /ˌɒptəməˈzeɪʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [op-tuh-muh-zey-shuhn] Show IPA
Use optimization in a Sentence
See web results for optimization
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1.  the fact of optimizing; making the best of anything.
2.  the condition of being optimized.
3.  Mathematics. a mathematical technique for finding a maximum or minimum value of a function of several variables subject to a set of constraints, as linear programming or systems analysis.

Taking definition 1. Now, another way to expound on this is that to optimize something, you are making the best of them for a specific task. That is, to choose the best layout of abilities, skills, feats, what-have-you to make the character fit for their chosen purpose - whether that to be a good summoner, or a master swordsman, a powerful holy warrior or a legendary bard.

To make a character who is, at the essence of who that character is, to be considered one of the above - by our very own reasoning that one's RP must reflect what is on one's character sheet - one must have the capability on one's character sheet to back up the concept. Your master swordsman may have spent a lot of his current level doing any manner of things - but that doesn't mean he should be taking Skill Focus: Diplomacy instead of Improved Critical at his next feat choice, or a level in Bard. Optimization is simply a matter of shaping a build that reflects and supports the core of the character. By your own logic - and my logic - you can't claim that your master swordsman is one of the best at his craft because when taking his levels you've made him a Fighter 1/Bard 3/Rogue 5/Harper Scout 2, with feat choices of Skill Focus: Bluff, Courteous Mageocracy and Stealthy. (BAB of 7 at level 11 as compared to the 11 he should have, as an aside). With all his attribute bonuses into Charisma.

Now, here's an example of something I've seen many a time, and is in fact the direct corollary of the oft-quoted example of 'the stunningly beautiful and charming character with 8 charisma'. The character built quite awfully in terms of combat, yet when it comes to roleplaying combat, expecting to be on equal footing in roleplayed martial conflict with characters who are, quite simply put, superior to them in combat ability - yet because it is being done through emotes instead of the game mechanic system, believe that this means they have the right to be as effective as the Fighter 1/Bard 3/Rogue 5/Harper Scout 2 as the Fighter 6/Weapon Master 7.

I would say that the latter is as bad form as the former, yet this criticism is rarely levied.

[*Abby]

My personal feeling is that this is the converse of what is true. You ought to take what you RP. And if you have not RPed it, you shouldn't take it.

Thats a bit tough to do at chracter creation. Anyway, I think if you are a good role player, and make a concious effort to role play whats on your sheet, that this goes without saying.

Abby is an absolute optimal build. I have her planned out all the way to epic level (not that ive ever gotten there.) Granted, if someone manages to change her, ill mold her level progression to match, but so long as she has no major changes in her view or mission in life, ill continue to take every feat, skill and item that increases her ability to heal.

If you don't plan ahead, you may find the goal you want to achieve is not available to you because you don't have the prerequisite feats neccesary to take what your RP has led you too.

If I want a to make a character who is going to be a Kensai, his training starts at level 1. The feats and skills I have to take in order to achieve weapon master reflect that training, as should my RP. But that doesn't mean I can't build him to be a good weapon master.

Im certainly not opposed to having him turn into a druid after some hippy decides to convince him to give up his sword and fight with a petrified flower while running naked in the wilds, but I wouldnt ever condemn anyone's RP because they kept their build in mind and RPed to that end. Its what I do.

In the end, people play this game for differant reasons. Some people do it almost like a character building hobby, some people do it because they enjoy the drama and story of an RP server. These two types of players will never be equal in level. If you restrict it down to where the shiny rock collecters can't have any fun because there is no XP for doing anything other than talking, they will get board and go elsewhere. Roleplayers will stay so long as there are other roleplayers, and they aren't always getting beat up by power leveling griefers.

I find a good way to keep the excitment of good dungeon crawlers, but scare off power-levelers who just want to see how fast they can grind their way to god-hood is to have an abysmally high death penalty. I love it. Keeps the game exciting, scares away those who just want to sprint to epic. But honestly a good balance is ideal. People will associate with whom they want to on a server. The RPers will find one another, and the power-levlers will sprint on past to the next dungeon, hit level 30 in a few weeks, get board and leave.

[*cryptc]

and the power-levlers will sprint on past to the next dungeon, hit level 30 in a few weeks, get board and leave.

You almost quoted one of our mission goals for the server there :)

[*Lost and not Found]

<Snip>I have to cynically wonder why your RP depends so much upon your spending time with no other characters. <Snip>

1# My character is searching for something specific, thus I think I can excuse mindless grinding with that excuse, I cannot survive in Abyss and I've just recently found the Paraelemental plane of Ice - and I'd say that there are better places to be in.

2# For my character to be able to sell those low-price & shady items, I need to get those items from somewhere. Although partying up really boosts your experience gain, it creates more competition towards who gets the loot. (With a Bag of Holding filled with magical items, I cannot find myself demanding share of the loot with the usual excuse; "I need it more than you do")

3# At times, it is quite hard to find people inside the Cage. They're all somewhere else - possibly grinding in planes and places I do not know of, this really holds true for the role-players.

4# And when you can see that there is someone in Sigil, the chances are that they're hiding in some back alley - or that it is Mausman's Kelth "confronting" something with horns and tail - or Cryptc's Vorr coughing and lookin' ugly as ever. (Not as if there is something wrong with these things, these are just honest observations.)

5# I really could use the next level, drinking potions of invisibility is really expensive.

[*Pashan01]

I find a good way to keep the excitment of good dungeon crawlers, but scare off power-levelers who just want to see how fast they can grind their way to god-hood is to have an abysmally high death penalty. I love it. Keeps the game exciting, scares away those who just want to sprint to epic. But honestly a good balance is ideal. People will associate with whom they want to on a server. The RPers will find one another, and the power-levlers will sprint on past to the next dungeon, hit level 30 in a few weeks, get board and leave.

Well, I dont' usually get into these discussion because I am sort of middle of the road player, fairly new who HAS to plan my character some else I screw up (and I still screw up anyway), I think people would regard me as a decent RPer/player on the whole as I LOVE to RP...BUT...I like my build decent cos I ALSO like to go adventure and bash monsters....and yeah, I like the levels that come with it and the better spells, gear, things, drops, satisfaction of finding that a particular spell or action works etc. Sometimes that's called grinding, mostly I prefer to 'adventure' it in a group, sometimes I like to solo-grind/bash whatever just to see what I and my char can do. I have several chars at a time too so my levelling 'tends' to be slower than most. On a new server, yeah, at first levelling was faster, now there's more plot, story, people, friends, less so.

There is room for the middling players here , and so there should be to RP OR grind/bash etc. While this is an RP server, hells, it can be adventure/bash too, that's where I started on NWN2 and is still a basic enjoyment of mine...optimal build...why not? But, if you do it, grind to gank other players when you reach level 30 well before them..nah, doubt I'd RP much with those types, they'd have no real character or connection or plot link to mine along the way anyway.

[*pelhikano]

Regarding the "ultra low XP from monsters" and "extremely harsh death penalty" things: I think this is one of those things that people SAY they enjoy, but it's not what the really WANT.

One of the things we were discussing in the planning stages of the server were XP and death. We had seen from own experience that servers with very low XP get very annoying to play after a while unless you got unlimited time, because you need to kill a zillion foozles to advance your character (yes, people actually enjoy to do that) and at some point you just get bored and log off.

With super harsh death penalties, people tend to get scared to go anywhere new and play it safe, which also just gets boring after a point (this is ALSO from own experience).

I know, not everyone is a "Bad Roleplayer" *sarcasm* like that, but the vast majority of people are. And I for one, as one of the people who builds areas and does scripting for the server, would hate it if we end up with only a tiny, tiny "hard core" of uber RPers that actually get to see any of the work we put into the server.

[*Mr_Otyugh]

I think this'll be one of those no-win debates (kinda like alignment debates) ;) not because people are stubborn necessarily, but since just about each of the mentioned situations can inspire roleplaying, some of them are more precise DnD ruling, where as others are more player friendly and thus less intimidating for casual roleplayers.

Just remember folks, roleplaying has different ways to approach it, there's no definite extreme, while of course there are no-no's to the roleplaying (metagaming / godmoding / autoing)



Now the real problem is how to provide something for most (if not all) players RP preferences <.<

[*[<3]]

Now the real problem is how to provide something for most (if not all) players RP preferences <.<

I'd think SCoD allready does provide something for most 'archetypes' of players allready, more so than many places in the NWN2 community tbh. - No need to worry about that. :)

Only thing I'd be looking forwards to would be more 'fixed DM groups' but those things evolve in time.

[*Ravel's Heart]

,Oct 13 2009, 01:31 PM]
I'd think SCoD allready does provide something for most 'archetypes' of players allready, more so than many places in the NWN2 community tbh. - No need to worry about that. :)

Only thing I'd be looking forwards to would be more 'fixed DM groups' but those things evolve in time.

This is coming along very slowly. But it is coming.

[*cryptc]

Yeah I played Thesk for a while too... problem with the server was that, even with all its nice areas and hardcore rp'ing, you were basicly dependant on dm quests... and usually (in my time zone) the server was really empty... it would be a routine of "log on", "do a few quests", "nothing to do, log off"...

So Thesk is one of the servers we've used to inspire how we've done SCoD you could say... give people some quests, but try to give people enough to do so that they stay logged on and meet other people and get the rp going... the low xp/gold penalty (compared to thesk) enforces this trend...

I have no objections to dms running high risk/reward events though...