Psa: How The Bazaar Really Sounds
-
*Mcblight
- Posts: 17
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Another thing to keep in mind is that the areas are not "the whole" of Sigil. What is the bazaar, is not the whole bazaar, but perhaps a more silent corner. If that was not the case, the bazaar would be a very small bazaar. From the different busy bazaars I have seen, there are often those hidden pockets where the more "familiar" goes etc. The same goes for mostly all the other areas. Having to make up non-visible NPCs all the time is bound to cause conflicts.
-
*Darkrob
- Posts: 1097
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
But for others to act in such a way also destroys the atmosphere that others are RPing. So by placing your 'none gets hurt 'cause there's no one there' over someone's 'Yeah they would, pal... this is the Great Bazaar... the largest and busiest Faction HQ in the City' pretty much forces an argument... guaranteed.
Either the market is full of life, alive and bustling, the Barracks teeming with troops, The Prison bursting with prisoners and guards and the Hive awash in sorrow and beggars... places where your actions are going to affect unseen others... or they're simply lifeless areas devoid of people and you can do what you want without worry. We can't really have it both ways without pitting players against each other.
Either the market is full of life, alive and bustling, the Barracks teeming with troops, The Prison bursting with prisoners and guards and the Hive awash in sorrow and beggars... places where your actions are going to affect unseen others... or they're simply lifeless areas devoid of people and you can do what you want without worry. We can't really have it both ways without pitting players against each other.
-
*Mr_Otyugh
- Posts: 2242
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Well we're already having an unwritten rules with spells which is more or less "if it works, it works", I think that approach is more functional than telling everyone that there's billion-billion people amassing the streets when nobody is ever roleplaying wading through crowds, being pushed by said crowd, or constantly checking their pockets since they are being moved by crowds, struggling to see past all the crowds... or talking in caps lock all the time because it's loud. This seems super selective roleplaying that only affects people who are actually doing something.
-
*Darkrob
- Posts: 1097
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Well... There's no real sense in arguing it anyhow because either you believe that the market is teeming with activity or you don't. It's really that simple and neither of us really has a great chance of convincing the other either way :)
So that said... people can RP as they wish but I will completely back any DM that steps in after someone launches a fireball in an otherwise RP busy area and state... "oh you didn't see me on the player list? Well that's too bad. You just killed 15 people. Welcome to the Prison' ;)
So that said... people can RP as they wish but I will completely back any DM that steps in after someone launches a fireball in an otherwise RP busy area and state... "oh you didn't see me on the player list? Well that's too bad. You just killed 15 people. Welcome to the Prison' ;)
-
*Mr_Otyugh
- Posts: 2242
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Fair enough, I'll just go with "Well because I just killed 15 NPCs, all the other NPCs are fleeing in terror, since you're taking no evasive actions, I assume you're getting pushed over and being trampled to death" because that is apparently how it can work :P
-
*Mr_Otyugh
- Posts: 2242
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
I'm just fairly sure such should be considered autoing, you're not giving any leeway in the narrative and set people up to a failure without... well, failure.
-
*Darkrob
- Posts: 1097
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
I understand that but it works both ways. For you to walk into the prison, stand off to the side of the row of cells, fire off a Fireball and state 'There was no one there so I hurt no one' is exploiting the physical limitations of the engine and the server. Of course there are people there. Of course you hurt someone but becasue we can't have all those NPC's spawned... you'd choose to ignore it. That is metagaming the limitations of the engine.
Not saying the underlying argument you're offering is entirely wrong, I agree with much of it, only that you're putting limitation of engine above logical RP.
Not saying the underlying argument you're offering is entirely wrong, I agree with much of it, only that you're putting limitation of engine above logical RP.
-
*MimiFearthegn
- Posts: 762
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
I feel like it should be that there are lots of people, but plot dictates they are not in locales inconvenient to plot. . .which yes, I realize is the ultimate cop out.
Like how technically all the stalls in the bazaar are probably owned, but functionally, the "empty" ones can be owned by a PC the moment the PC decides to set up shop there, and not owned by the PC on off hours. And they also always happen to be empty when a fireball is cast on them. . . unless they aren't.
Edit: And yet, yes, if you do something obvious in the middle of the street, 10 invisible people probably saw you do it, unless you specifically noted that you were doing said obvious thing when the street was empty. Roleplaying is very contradictory.
Like how technically all the stalls in the bazaar are probably owned, but functionally, the "empty" ones can be owned by a PC the moment the PC decides to set up shop there, and not owned by the PC on off hours. And they also always happen to be empty when a fireball is cast on them. . . unless they aren't.
Edit: And yet, yes, if you do something obvious in the middle of the street, 10 invisible people probably saw you do it, unless you specifically noted that you were doing said obvious thing when the street was empty. Roleplaying is very contradictory.
-
*coyotesage
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
I rarely agree with Mr. O on anything, but on this issue I'm with him. That means you might want to reconsider your position Mr. O :P
If we are to assume that all of Sigil is being represented within the module that exists, then I gotta say that this Sigil is tiny. What I've always imagined is happening is that we are only seeing small portions of most areas. So in that scenario where you go to the prison and there are empty cells, well that would just be one of the areas of the prison that does in fact have empty cells. I'm sure that the prison is not at 100% of capacity all of the time, or even some of the time. The same goes for how I see the marketplace. This is just one small section of it that doesn't happen to have a sea of people walking around in it.
Although, how much would it really hurt the server resources to just add a bunch of extra, non-interactive npcs into the market and maybe fill up some of those empty cells? I'm honestly asking, because I don't know how resource intensive a creature model that's just there for appearances actually is. Having a bunch of generic npcs just standing around, especially in the areas where there are shops, would definitely make it seem more busy. Also add a few at the tables, some standing at the bar, etc.
I very much see roleplaying characters existing where they don't exist as being a kind of metagaming. What if someone went around screaming "such and such keeps pushing people out their spots on the bench so he/she can sit there!" Shouldn't we believe that if people are just standing around everywhere in the market, that they'd also be sitting on those benches or at the tables? Where do you stop with it? Obviously you can't use "common sense" to determine things like that in this situation.
If we are to assume that all of Sigil is being represented within the module that exists, then I gotta say that this Sigil is tiny. What I've always imagined is happening is that we are only seeing small portions of most areas. So in that scenario where you go to the prison and there are empty cells, well that would just be one of the areas of the prison that does in fact have empty cells. I'm sure that the prison is not at 100% of capacity all of the time, or even some of the time. The same goes for how I see the marketplace. This is just one small section of it that doesn't happen to have a sea of people walking around in it.
Although, how much would it really hurt the server resources to just add a bunch of extra, non-interactive npcs into the market and maybe fill up some of those empty cells? I'm honestly asking, because I don't know how resource intensive a creature model that's just there for appearances actually is. Having a bunch of generic npcs just standing around, especially in the areas where there are shops, would definitely make it seem more busy. Also add a few at the tables, some standing at the bar, etc.
I very much see roleplaying characters existing where they don't exist as being a kind of metagaming. What if someone went around screaming "such and such keeps pushing people out their spots on the bench so he/she can sit there!" Shouldn't we believe that if people are just standing around everywhere in the market, that they'd also be sitting on those benches or at the tables? Where do you stop with it? Obviously you can't use "common sense" to determine things like that in this situation.