Coming Soon - Demonologist Prestige Class

[*Ceremorph]

Aslya, I do want to point out the one thing wrong there... you're in Gatecrasher mode, which is meant to be "hard mode". Any balancing is going to be based on how things work in the default mode, just like balancing is also going to be based on the standard OC races, not the high LA races. So the follow-up questions:

1. Buffed in the abyss in standard mode, how does she do?
2. How does she stack up in the same area to the summons from Summon Monster VIII and IX?

I'd also take power vs. duration into account as well. The Binder of Fiends summon is permanent (until death), so it really shouldn't be on the same class as what you get with, say, a Gate spell.

[*Jambi]

Now it gets interesting... you're saying the erinyes is rushing into combat and pulling all the aggro? I just assumed that the "wow this is a tough pet" was because you'd switched her to ranged attacks and she was tearing everyone apart with her bow!

Sorry im not sure if this was directed at me.
But no, she does not rush into combat herself.
But being invisible as the demonologist and having you partymembers out of sight. You can trigger spawns, and the monsters will have nothing too attack but your Erinyes. Wait for a bit, until all the monsters are trying too kill the pet. Then have the party go ham
Bigger npc's like ice giants at low level. can be done easier by sending in your summoned creature first, too tank and die. While the Erinyes shoots her arrows.

Frankly my own experience by playing a human demonologist, not only confirmed my the observations i had when Aslya was playing hers. But made me think it is actually more powerfull then i had experienced the first time.
Note: Im not questioning her gameplay or stroking my own.

Ice Plane
Buffs i didnt see in the first walk thru with Aslya were for example Enlargen Person, Cats Grace, Displacement, Rage. Correct me if im wrong.

-

A wild thought i had yesterday, wich is a long shot. Perhaps introduce a 4th pet at level 10, instead of the immunities. The immunities are nice, but in my idea not worth taking a level for, especially on ECL toons.

The 4th tier pet, will be unequipped dus weaker then the 3rd and perhaps 2nd tier. But higher statistics. But it will require more thought...
Too make up for that, you can actually manage the inventory of the 4th pet, giving it armor and weapons and such from your own inventory. Being able to customize the pets strenght accordingly too where your hunting. Think Diablo 2 Hecnhman if that makes sense.
But that will aquire alot of work, and im not even sure if thats even possible within the games engine.

This will drain some of the gold the demonologist has gotten from earlier levels, by not having too spend much. Wich in return would scale with other classes that are reliable on equipment, in gold income / spending.

On a note for high ECL races picking up demonologist. The pet scales diffrently in strenght then it would for a human, clearly. But a higher ECL character would also be able to contribute more, given higher base stats, AB/ AC and perhaps a good ability. A vampire for instance.

Talking about non Abyss content.

[*lookslikerain]

On a note for high ECL races picking up demonologist. The pet scales diffrently in strenght then it would for a human, clearly. But a higher ECL character would also be able to contribute more, given higher base stats, AB/ AC and perhaps a good ability. A vampire for instance.

Talking about non Abyss content.

Hold on here. You're claiming that say, an ECL +8 succubus sorcerer/demonologist at level 9 (17) can somehow come close to what an actual human sorcerer/demonologist at an actual level of 17 can do? I don't think so.

AB? The human will have 2 attacks per round, BAB 8, succubus 1, BAB 4. Neither is going to invest heavily in strength or dex, and the succubus only has +2 str and dex.

AC? IF the succubus has lots of money to enhance all her equipment, yes she can get higher personal AC, but NONE of it will be able to come from spells because she only has caster level 8 spells (easy to dispel!), which also means buffs are far weaker on the pet. HP will be about half. The human could have spent a feat on toughness easily to match the succubus +2 con. She may or may not have done that by then.

Spells per day? The succubus still loses, overall, because the human has many more spell levels worth of spells to play with. On an individual spell level basis, sure the succubus probably has more casts per day of magic missile than the human, but she only has up to level 4 spells, and a single level 4 spell to play with at that. The human should have up to level 7 spells.

The succubus spell DCs are really quite good with her charisma, but are they good enough to matter, especially when flinging lower level spells at higher level monsters with higher saves, spell resistance and the like? Probably not, but the succubus is also an extreme case here. Nothing else gets DC's approaching a succubus due to her charisma, yet she still has very few spells to play with, and probably no metamagic. Any buffs are not attack spells. Any attack spells are not buffs.

Her spell resist? Likely worthless for fighting things twice her level. The other resists? The human can easily make up for it by having much higher saves from the higher levels, and having better spells, like say energy immunity which the succubus has no access to yet.

And finally, the succubus kiss? Since the succubus is always fighting far above her level, she can't ever dominate anything with it, only charm, and the DC is hampered by her low levels and the high level monsters much higher saves, as well as needing to make a touch attack which is hampered by her very low AB.


High ECL absolutely destroys casters in my estimation, which I think is why I see very few high ECL races at high levels on the server, caster or otherwise. It isn't very good for non casters either.

Just to make a point look at an ECL +4 half fiend which isn't a high ECL, but it still falls behind a human. They get +4 strength and +4 dex. A human gets 4 levels of AB over them whether dex or strength based, that still translates to at least a +1 better AB if they are a 3/4 class, and in most cases can just step up their armor to match the dex. The +1 natural armor bonus is only a bonus at certain level ranges due to tumble, and ultimately the half fiend can't get 30 tumble if it is a class that can get 30 tumble. Of course the half fiend does get a 2-3 point damage bonus from the strength over the human.

Skills, what is that half fiend rogue doing compared to a human? With +4 int they get 1 more skill point per level than a human, 2 more than most no ECL races. But, they are 4 levels behind in applying those skills. The +4 dex, for example, gives them +2 to hide/move silent, but the -4 levels gives them -4 for a net total of -2. The human might lose a point or two for being in worse armor in that case, but for most rogues that is not an issue at the higher levels, and most skills don't have that issue. For UMD, the +2 charisma still leaves them 3 points behind the human.

And for hit points, the half fiend is always 4 levels behind. That is, for a 3/4 or full BAB class, between 24-48 hit points less than a human. For a level 26 half fiend, the +2 con gives them 26 more HP, which if they are rogue with 6 HP/level gives them a 2 hit point advantage over the human. For a barbarian at 12 HP/level, they are still 22 points behind.


The point is simply that no, ECL races do not end up making the difference in their levels in terms of spells, AB, HP, etc. They have other abilities like resistances and DR that help them out, but in terms of things like caster ability, skills, and AB, they are pretty much always behind, and I would believe those are more often the deciding factors.

End tangent.

[*Ceremorph]

I've created a modification for the demonologist class which will effect their summons, as well as doing away with the "feather" unsummoning device and replacing it with an additional feat that performs the same function. This will appear next update.

Features:
* Minor alterations made to the Erinyes summons
* Incubus summons made equivalent in class levels and features to Erinyes summons
* Unsummoning feat added to class; drag to hotbar to use
* "Blue feather" unsummoner creation removed
* Fourth-tier pet available when total levels (all class levels + LA) equal 25 or more AND character has 9 levels of Demonologist

Once that's live our in-game demonologists can test the new features out.

[*Jambi]

On a note for high ECL races picking up demonologist. The pet scales diffrently in strenght then it would for a human, clearly. But a higher ECL character would also be able to contribute more, given higher base stats, AB/ AC and perhaps a good ability. A vampire for instance.

Talking about non Abyss content.

Hold on here...

What you are saying, makes alot of sense and i agree with it.

But you are misunderstanding what i am trying to say.

I never compared humans to high ECL's too be equally, nor did i compare builds what a human or high ECL can pull off and what not. And im also not talking about end game comparisons between all of the above.
I did not say the contribution of a high ECL compares equally too the strenght of a human demonologist.
You probably missed the last line where i state:"

Talking about non Abyss content.

Too elaborate:

What i am talking about is picking the PrC up. (aka working towards it , picking it up.. not having all the demonologist levels already)

The human will get it sooner then a high ECL when raced for it, and it most likely be easier gameplay for a human, since stronger pets are unlocked sooner... wich in order unlocks leveling in higher difficulty.
But most high ECL inherit enough stats / abilities that contribute to be strong enough to work towards the PrC. Some ECL's are strong enough too start off in Brux, even when starting out as a wizard. It will take longer, but its doable.

A Demonologist does not need as many levels / feats / skill etc as some other PrC's require.
It is not like you need the amount of requirements needed for a Weapon Master, while playing as a wizard... now that would be a problem for most high ECL races... and makes the inherit stat/ability etc contribution deminish quickly as he needs too take more levels while relying on them.
But since this is not the case, picking up demonologist is worth it, and the lower tier pets strong enough too help out when unlocked, and your in an area designated for your level and playing on the default difficulty.

But yeah, going over the top by picking Devil, Paeliryon for example and unlock the pet at 12+9 or something. i wouldnt recommend. lets stay reasonable
Hopefully that clears things up.

[*Jambi]

* Fourth-tier pet available when total levels (all class levels + LA) equal 25 or more AND character has 9 levels of Demonologist

Jeez.. such a simple, yet perfect solution.
I wish i would stop over-thinking stuff to often :lol:

[*Tubbles]

I guess one of my few complaints with the class so far is that I wish it was some sort of Expert Summoner PrC that was open to all alignments, with the alignment you choose dictating what cohort you get. I just love that Summoning Mastery feat and it makes me sad that only Evil characters can get it.

[*Ceremorph]

Tubbles, I can't make any promises about summoning, but it may cheer you up that after I've finished my rework of the summons tables, I'm planning some nice things for the not-evil among us.

[*Plaxy100]

just a nitpick Bard demonoligist did not gain a familiar at level 2 like it says I should I wants me quasit.

[*Agony_Aunt]

just a nitpick Bard demonoligist did not gain a familiar at level 2 like it says I should I wants me quasit.

Should it?

http://sigil-nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Demonologist

Is the wiki wrong, or some other source?