Good Aligned Characters

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*Embersworn
Posts: 171
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Posted by *Embersworn »


Taihou,Oct 30 2016 wrote: For example let us take objectively selfless character, devoted to ideals of Greater Good, who really does not want anything for himself, just to save the world, but for his mission, he forsakes mercy and compassion and begins to vivisection sentient beings, destroy whole settlements to root out whatever is cause of possible disaster and so on, thus committing what most would describe as "atrocities". Is he "still good"?

What I was saying, that there are two systems of "good" and "evil" when it comes to DnD - one is "mechanical", which is some kind of OOC driver. It could be represented not necessarily by selfishness, as example above shows us, that there are loads of ways to make character be nice, selfless and with wholly good intentions, but system-wise "evil", second is In-character, or actual one, which does take into account, what character would think of others and what is the basis of taking the decisions, which would in turn rely on some understanding of "sin" and "virtue" to set up some more suitable system of In-character rights and wrongs from the in-character point of view.

P. S. As for DnD evil/good and selfishness, by the way, person who defies rules of nature (in this sense, the purpose for which reproduction mechanism exists. Also, note that if such hazardous deviations occur in nature their subjects for obvious reasons are eliminated via natural selection) and remains in claws of his base desires is selfish, thus evil, whatever he will mask it as.
No, he's no longer "Good" because his actions are no longer purely selfless. He inflicted undue suffering, their actions were excessive and not proportional to the threat, and this his more or less how paladins and Celestials fall in this universe - by taking things too far.

Playing a Good character in D&D is walking a fine line between doing too much and not doing enough.

Going into fight and killing a bunch of goblins to stop them from raiding helpless villages? - "Good" act, the innocents were saved. It would be preferable to not having to kill the goblins, but very likely negotiations weren't possible anyway.

Going into fight and killing a bunch of goblins for the same reason, and then piling some torture and finishing wounded on top of it, then raiding their camp and finishing their children "just in case" - "Evil" act, it was taken too far. The cruelty inflicted was more than needed and certainly not propotional.

Though characters in universe don't refer to themselves in dry mechanical terms like "Good", "Neutral", "Evil".

It's perfectly possible in this universe to have a character who thinks themselves as being good and honest whilst doing terrible things out of the sheer fanaticism... But the Multiverse will count them as "Evil" anyway. They'll die and end in Abyss or Baator, much to their surprise. :X

Though characters like that are very likely to be called for their cruelty IC-ly and if it was a PnP campaign there wouldn't be of any surprise for anyone else if an Angel was sent down with a divine punishment...
... especially if said fanatics are doing this kind of things in the name of a Good deity.



Your personal interpretation of what is a selfish act in terms of personal interactions is also, just that - personal interpretation.

You're free to RP it in game, but don't expect being always taken seriously or this being considered a valid criteria if you'll try to use it in game to judge anyone's character alignment.

This will be taken as seriously as a justice warrior calling Paladin a racist...

Because it belongs in the same place - a person projecting their IRL values into RP and expecting everyone else rolling with it. Especially when said person reserves to themselves a pretty delusional right to judge when the relationship is genuine and when it's selfish. :X
*MimiFearthegn
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Posted by *MimiFearthegn »


D&D seems to consider being promiscuous as being chaotic (chaos being a more emotionally and impulse driven thing). There's a fair number of deities of love and pleasure who are listed as CG.
*Mr_Otyugh
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Posted by *Mr_Otyugh »


Ability to enjoy sex has absolutely nothing to do with alignments. It's absurd to assume that it could be any other way. If your prime motivation is to get laid, then yeah, you're probably not good if that's the only meter in the consideration, not because "it's an evil act" (which, spoiler alert, it isn't), but because it's simply put a natural thing to happen. It's jolly and it's natural, only cases where it becomes an issue is when it comes to the extremes, in food related comparisons people who enjoy good food aren't an issue, the issue is on the morbidly obese or the dangerously anorectic, everyone else are perfectly fine and aren't going to be particularly characterized by such activities. And even in those extreme cases of lecherous and abstinent, you're really dealing more about lawful and chaotic if you really want to project it into alignments since it's about embracing spontaneous urges or controlling them.

A paladin doesn't become good because they've chosen abstinence, heck if anything such vows are more about lawful than good act because they're making an arbitrary decision to not participate such for the pursuit of their duty. And even in that it doesn't mean abstinence equals lawful, or that lust equals chaotic. Absolutely no correlation, the point was the act of making a vow and living up to it, could've been a vow to never eat anything sweet just as fine, or a vow to live in poverty, or never to punch a lady.

Good alignment isn't condemning themselves into misery because of some artificial consideration that they need to be selfless enough to stop eating and give all their food to others, and stop having any sort of fun to make sure others are fine. Those things can be a sense of duty, true, but there's nothing good about self-destructive behavior which is distinctly different from being selfless. You can be perfectly selfless without ruining your own life in some arbitrary sense of duty for gods.

*edit* And seems Mimi got there sooner!
*Hydra
Posts: 554
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Posted by *Hydra »


Taihou,Oct 30 2016 wrote:
Hydra,Oct 30 2016 wrote:
I fully understand you're just trolling with your political innuendos, and nobody cares.
Will leave speaking on behalf of everyone as well as ad hominem and ad personam arguments to thine own conscience, but as for thine opinion, I do not care too.

I won't repeat this twice nor will I begin to prove the opposite, but will just say, that I am not trolling and in what I say, I am absolutely sincere. I say how I really feel, that is it. Hope this is simple and comprehensible statement enough to cover this topic and not return to it anymore.
I've no idea what's wrong with you. D&D is a western game, created in the US of America during the 70-80ies based on previous ideas and written works that goes back way back from the 20-50ies, it copies a moral system that is literally based on western value of these periods, at its further iterations further evolved on the same principles. Alignment is not an OCC thing, it's a mechanical thing that has a concrete impact on the game world since a lot of spells, planes and other effects are based on it, you can ignore it bit ICLy and OCCly but it dosen't ignore you and since it applies to many different species that aren't all having sex to reproduce or even have a concept of morality, still they have an alignment because that's how the multiverse work.

That said I'm perfectly fine with people having an issue with it ICly, one of my characters secretly dreams to reshaping the multiverse to be different and another wants to see it collapse and burn because she thinks it's a complete nonsense, but until this happens the wheel keeps turning and alignments are a thing. Like it or not, it's like the law of gravity in our own reality, you can deny it and fall all the same.
*Mick64
Posts: 490
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Posted by *Mick64 »


wrote:Also, as I sayed interpreting "good" and "evil" are both IC and OOC very subjecticve. For example tell me whatever thou want, but I will NEVER consider driven by lust or sodomite character good-aligned. tongue.gif
You are, of course, free to be wrong. The strength of your belief does not affect the validity of your belief. (At least in our real world)
wrote:If one makes "paladin", or character, who originates from "good planes" acting like that, I will say, it is bullshit character, who does not follow his alignment.
See this is the problem with Moral Relativists. How can you call "bullshit" if it's all subjective and there is no objective truth? Isn't their version of the baby-eating, have-sex-10-times-a-day paladin perfectly valid since alignment is subjective?
wrote:Whereas "stupidity" is subjective term too. We call "stupid" person, who does not share our own (certainly smartest) point of view as some "last retort". If ask me - best way to loose a debate is to call opponent "stupid".
The goal of a (Good) debate isn't to win, it's to arrive to the truth together.
*Clangeddin
Posts: 109
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Posted by *Clangeddin »


A paladin that has sex 10 times a day will probably never move from level 1. Or any class for that matter. :lol:
*edmaster44
Posts: 797
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Posted by *edmaster44 »


Clangeddin,Oct 30 2016 wrote: A paladin that has sex 10 times a day will probably never move from level 1. Or any class for that matter. :lol:
Right cause he or she will be to dam tired to do anything!
*Embersworn
Posts: 171
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Posted by *Embersworn »


They're kinda failing at making anything constructive this way.


Unless they're making a lot of babies. ::troll::
*Sinlinara
Posts: 528
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Posted by *Sinlinara »


I'm certain that there is some Deity or faith somewhere that will grant a Cleric XP for sex.
*Clangeddin
Posts: 109
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Posted by *Clangeddin »


Sinlinara,Oct 30 2016 wrote: I'm certain that there is some Deity or faith somewhere that will grant a Cleric XP for sex.
It must have 99% of the DND's universe population as followers.
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