Disclaimer For Large Folk

[*Love_on_a_Wire]

Why? We never had any problems when Druids were the only one's permitted the large size.

I disagree.

[*Godolia il Magus]

If it will be restricted only to cities etc. it can be a good thing. The size turns out to be really useful in combat, you can engage a lot of suckers at the same time. :P

That is actually another good argument to reduce the model size...

Sizes don't have a huge (pun! :P ) impact on the game. It has some of it, the smallest price among the prices to pay for such powerful races.

In terms of easiness, the very big creatures are giving issues in graphics, mainly (and I think almost only) in cities. Since this issue is in regards of the visuals, a script that gets every too big creature into a (out of game) reasonable size could be forced, while being - at least until roleplay reasons allow - of their real size, thus ideally and not practically (perceivable), during play.

In combat, the only advantage a very large size gives is to cover a larger area where to do opportunity attacks etc., yet counterbalanced by armor class penalties and other maluses.

If I hypothetically had to solve the problem with dragons, which is mostly friction between players - and requires a bit of will to live together :D, I would have simply applied the out-of-game's size restriction in cities, enforced by scripts (if players are not reasonable enough to do that by themselves), while leaving sizes in combat as they currently are. If there's a thing that could be useful to do, is to raise the level adjustment on dragons etc. If the djinn LA +8 was too much, LA +3 on dragons is, I think, too short. Maybe a point or two more would help. :)

[*Ceremorph]

One other point to make about dragons, and this just seems a good place to make it since I don't remember whether the age argument this follows up was in this thread and I'm too lazy to read back and look.

The Lady of Pain prevents creatures of a certain power level from entering Sigil. We've always used "Pit Fiend/Balor" as sort of the point where she'd make a point (and this works because of our "you're actually half your level" assumption, where an actual Pit Fiend would be a 36-HD creature.

Pit fiends and Balors have a base challenge rating of 20. So does an "old" red Dragon (which I actually think is somewhat undervalued) according to the MM, and this is base model with a mere 28 monster hit dice as opposed to being stuffed full of character levels. Pretty sure the Lady would see any sufficiently advanced dragon as a potential threat and explode it into little bite-sized chunks.

[*Love_on_a_Wire]

Pit fiends and Balors have a base challenge rating of 20. So does an "old" red Dragon (which I actually think is somewhat undervalued) according to the MM, and this is base model with a mere 28 monster hit dice as opposed to being stuffed full of character levels. Pretty sure the Lady would see any sufficiently advanced dragon as a potential threat and explode it into little bite-sized chunks.

Since the new dragon system was shared with me, this is the agreed-on opinion that I've been a persistent nuisance about.

The original dragon races on Sigil specified "Young Adult" and I think anything older than that starts to get into CR territory well and above the equivalent of CL 15. And is silly.

[*PenguinNinja]

Then why the hell can you choose to play a 1,200+ Great Wyrm (CR 26)? Jesus Christ. Also Sin, you complain about the tiniest crap. Don't you have anything better to do? Klath stays out of the way and off to the side, ONE time he was in the middle of the road, for like 5 minutes.

[*Love_on_a_Wire]

Then why the hell can you choose to play a 1,200+ Great Wyrm (CR 26)? Jesus Christ.

I'm asking the same question.

[*Sinlinara]

Also Sin, you complain about the tiniest crap. Don't you have anything better to do?

I'm going to say upfront that I haven't been the best at controlling my temper, which is unfortunately a personal flaw of mine that I am still working on. However, I will ask that you refrain from name calling and personal attacks. That sort of behavior doesn't help anyone.

[*Ceremorph]

Then why the hell can you choose to play a 1,200+ Great Wyrm (CR 26)? Jesus Christ. Also Sin, you complain about the tiniest crap. Don't you have anything better to do? Klath stays out of the way and off to the side, ONE time he was in the middle of the road, for like 5 minutes.

The same reason you can choose to play a 9,999 year old human. Because Obsidian, in the midst of all their other bugginess, decided to implement an age dialog box that has absolutely no impact on the game and that any number up to that amount can be plugged in.

And Penguin, if you did this "one time" then you're not the problem here, and I'm not quite sure why you're so vociferously defending the right to plop a big-ass dragon down in the Bazaar.

[*Love_on_a_Wire]

Then why the hell can you choose to play a 1,200+ Great Wyrm (CR 26)? Jesus Christ. Also Sin, you complain about the tiniest crap. Don't you have anything better to do? Klath stays out of the way and off to the side, ONE time he was in the middle of the road, for like 5 minutes.

The same reason you can choose to play a 9,999 year old human. Because Obsidian, in the midst of all their other bugginess, decided to implement an age dialog box that has absolutely no impact on the game and that any number up to that amount can be plugged in.

And Penguin, if you did this "one time" then you're not the problem here, and I'm not quite sure why you're so vociferously defending the right to plop a big-ass dragon down in the Bazaar.

I believe he's talking about how the Dragon Age ability that new dragons have allows them to determine their character's size via selecting age in a cinematic dialogue.

It goes up to 1200+, though it does mock you for selecting it by stating that you probably have a cave mouth to be guarding right now instead of being in Sigil.

[*Strawberry Jam]

One other point to make about dragons, and this just seems a good place to make it since I don't remember whether the age argument this follows up was in this thread and I'm too lazy to read back and look.

The Lady of Pain prevents creatures of a certain power level from entering Sigil. We've always used "Pit Fiend/Balor" as sort of the point where she'd make a point (and this works because of our "you're actually half your level" assumption, where an actual Pit Fiend would be a 36-HD creature.

Pit fiends and Balors have a base challenge rating of 20. So does an "old" red Dragon (which I actually think is somewhat undervalued) according to the MM, and this is base model with a mere 28 monster hit dice as opposed to being stuffed full of character levels. Pretty sure the Lady would see any sufficiently advanced dragon as a potential threat and explode it into little bite-sized chunks.

Actually Pit Fiend has 18 HD and 20 CR, but advancement accounts for 54 HD. Only the strongest dragons are 20 CR for being "old" and that is with 30 HD while they are able to advance up to 41 HD for reds.

What you need to remember about CR is that you can increase it be increasing the monster's wealth, but usually humanoid shaped critters benefit from this the most. So what that means is giving them items is equivalent of giving them levels.

I think what factors more into it might not so much be the HD but what the monster represents, creatures that don't burn villages and eat people probably do better. A mind flayer might do okay in Sigil but a neothelid wouldn't