Turning Ethereal In Sigil.

*The_Tarot
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Posted by *The_Tarot »


wrote:you should not need any rule or to disable the spell mechanically for people to remain In-character, do you?


The point being is there are Ethereal creatures in Sigil. Do you choose to ignore them too? The Spirit in the Foul Olde Spirit inn. As well as using Bags of Holding?

wrote: Until we can implement all spells that don't work on various planes (including fire magic in plane of ice to take an example), we won't enforce single spells being used somewhere they by pnp lore can't be used.
I understand it's just an example, but could always just make everything immune to fire on the ice plane sooner or later. Same results, but I understand mechanically it's actually a spellcraft check to manifest fire.
wrote: Etherealness works in Sigil in SCoD, I can't put it much simpler than this... it's not against the rules, and there is no arguing about it... Yes, thats not what the PnP rules say, and yes we've explained why we have made this decision.


This is what I was looking for, Thank you. So I can simply point to the post and end any further OOC that may come up on the topic of Ethereal.
*Product of Void
Posts: 355
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Posted by *Product of Void »


Until it becomes a problem its not a problem.

Lately I have taken to using tells to say ooc comments to people or respond to ooc questions. why? to keep from flooding peoples rp with ooc coments, because I see tells as completely ooc unless stated. And its my own personal rule.

Just as There are build rules people follow there is also spell rules class rules, gender rules, etc many people have dozens of personal rules some can be they utterly lack rules which in its self is a rule.

My whole time here I have had 1-2 ooc issues that I quickly spoke to them and was easily resolved. Some issues are very comical, a few tells or modified rp and fixed.

Today's society is much like a PW. Gah people are doing something I do not agree with or like, lets make a law. When an average child knows right and wrong which is truly all the law needs to look at.

Just as the server does not have rules against say dominating all the npcs and taking them to a personal room to shrink. Does not mean people need to be told do not do it. Its common sense.

If people are being hurtful ooc, unreasonable ooc, and unable to find common ground.

step one take screenies
step two avoid
step three report.

If staff does not know they can not do.
Plus if you show them the issue with screenies it makes it that much more troublesome for the other person.
*The_Tarot
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Posted by *The_Tarot »


It's come up way to often, You know you've seen it when someone turns Ethereal. "You can't do that." - "Yes I can, Because of X"

Maybe I'm a rules enthusiast, but I'd like an "official" ruling people can point to so these arguments can be ended with a direct to a specific post. I personally haven't (yet) beat anyone over the head with my line of thinking over the topic, but having it come and interrupt the flow of RP is annoying.

Below my own personal beliefs are some quotes from Mr O. regarding the Ethereal pulled from a topic in the bugs reporting section for convenience.

Specifically, there are a few things that bug me if not "allowed", and I understand there isn't a desire to go through the spells and alter things. (and some can't be changed.)

The conflicting sources have only confused things, I've been in several DM events in which things have went Ethereal or Plane-shifted.

Wraiths exist on the Ethereal Plane. There is a wraith floating about in the lower ward. The Foul Old Spirit would qualify as the same.

Bags of Holding are non-dimensional spaces. ( a pocket plane on the astral/ethereal.) Technically you're plane-shifting people and objects every time you open one up. Bad things happen if you rip or puncture one (While inside)

Conjuration. (Orb spells) Are summoned directly from their parent plane.

What I've usually RP'd and what makes sense in my mind is the following:

Ethereal works, albeit in a limited fashion. - No sliding through doors/walls. It also just asks for power-gaming break-ins. (Giving NWN2s limitations, and perhaps the Ethereal Plane has bled into Sigil, just barely allowing incorporeal forms to exist, It is after all, connected to everywhere.

Plane-shifting works, but is subject to drawing the Lady's attention and "approval" (DM Consent) Perceived threats are dealt with mazes and flayings.

Gate is a no go. - Both in it's planar travel abilities and summoning abilities. Ripping open a doorway to another plane is just begging for an outsider/power that has an interest in Sigil to walk right in and upset balance. You want to gate? Go to another Plane and do it.

Drawing the Lady's attention isn't immediately met with death. (This specific thought is spurred by the events in the game Planescape:Torment , ever go to the shop and have The Nameless One play with the Lady of Pain doll? Yeah, Hilarity) When subjected to her attention. That tingle or chill up your spine occurs, that feeling you know you're being watched and need to tread carefully.

Now for the Quotes by Mr O regarding Ethereal.
wrote: Now this is the option given by Manual of Planes:
wrote: OPTION: WITHOUT THE ETHEREAL
The Ethereal Plane is tightly tied to its coexistent plane. However, you can create planes without Ethereal Planes attached to them. This affects a number of spells, magic items, and creatures.



    * The following spells directly use the Ethereal Plane and do not function if the plane cannot be accessed: chamber, ethereal jaunt, etherealness, ether blast, and Leomund's secret chest. In addition, magic items that duplicate these spells, such as oil of etherealness, do not function in the absence of this plane.


    * The following spells have elements that do not function because there is no Ethereal Plane to affect: dimensional anchor, invisibility purge, make manifest, mass manifest, see invisibility, true seeing, vanish, zone of respite, zone of revelation, and spells with the force descriptor such as magic missile and wall of force. Other elements of these spells function as normal.


    * The blink spell still works, but you have to determine exactly how it functions (if at all) without an Ethereal Plane.


    * Creatures that use the Ethereal Plane extensively, such as the blink dog, ethereal marauder, ethereal filcher, and phase spider are at a distinct disadvantage without access to the Ethereal Plane. Accordingly, they avoid areas that don't provide ethereal access. Ghosts do not exist in areas without the Ethereal Plane.



In the D&D cosmology, only the Material Plane has a coexistent Ethereal Plane. None of the Inner or Outer Planes connect to the Ethereal Plane, so the above rules apply on any Inner Plane or Outer Plane.

Then there's also thing like this added:
wrote: QUOTE
Curtains
Shimmering curtains connect the Ethereal Plane to various Inner and Outer Planes. Just like portals, ethereal curtains create conduits through the Astral Plane. While they can be detected from the Material Plane (with a true seeing spell, for example), ethereal curtains can be entered only from the Ethereal Plane.

Ethereal curtains function like the color pools of the Astral Plane, but they always turn travelers solid when they reach the destination plane (whereas it's possible to project an astral form through an astral color pool, creating a new body on the other side). Travelers stranded on the Ethereal Plane can use an ethereal curtain to go elsewhere. Ethereal curtains are almost always stationary. They are immune to all but the most violent of ether cyclones (see below). Well-known ethereal curtains may be guarded, worshiped, or exploited by those with interest in the plane on the other end.

Curtains can also lead into demiplanes. While a demiplane usually connects to the Astral Plane, one may have an entrance onto the Ethereal Plane. This is common among demiplanes used as prisons, because even if prisoners escape, they're still on the Ethereal Plane, where travel is slow, easily spotted, and sometimes blocked by ethereal solids.

As with any portal, each ethereal curtain can have its own properties. In general such curtains are one-way portals, although there are exceptions (see the ethereal tapestry magic item below).

As with the color pools of the Astral Plane, ethereal curtains have their own colors. The D&D cosmology uses the table below, but you can create your own if you like. The color schemes of ethereal curtains and astral color pools don't need to match.
And this
wrote: QUOTE
OPTION: MULTIPLE ETHEREALS
Within the Great Wheel of the D&D cosmology, only the Material Plane has a coexistent Ethereal Plane. But you may allow other planes access to the Ethereal Plane as well. Some, all, or none of your planes can be coexistent with ethereal planes of their own. You might restrict these “miniethereal planes” to planes of a particular type, such as Elemental Planes or Outer Planes. This means that there could be an Ethereal Elemental Plane of Fire, or an Ethereal Plane of Elysium.

Inhabitants of those planes would be able to access their particular Ethereal Plane and use spells and spell-like abilities that affect the Ethereal Plane. Creatures that call the Ethereal Plane home would be found in the associated Ethereal Planes as well.

An Ethereal Plane connected to another plane may have some, all, or none of the attributes of that plane. It still has the core traits of the Ethereal Plane (no gravity, and a normal time). But it could have, for example, the fire-dominant trait if itÂ’s coexistent with the Elemental Plane of Fire, or a weak evilaligned trait if it's connected to the Gray Waste of Hades. Multiple Ethereal Planes can be used in conjunction with the Deep Ethereal option. In this case, travelers can move from the Material Plane to another plane directly through the Ethereal Plane. First a traveler attains the Ethereal Plane that's coexistent with the Material Plane. Then the traveler moves into the Deep Ethereal, and from the Deep Ethereal moves to the Ethereal Plane that's coexistent with the destination plane.

To make such a trip, use the time scale as indicated for the Deep Ethereal, giving the effort the same time as “returning to the Material Plane.” Travelers coming out of the Deep Ethereal appear at a random location on the Ethereal Plane that's coexistent with the new plane. Finally, you can link multiple planes through one Ethereal Plane. For example, all the Outer Planes might link to the same Ethereal Plane, while another Ethereal Plane links the Inner Planes to the Material Plane.



Yet there does not exist spells such as improved invisibilities, there is 'greater' invisibility, but not improved invisibility. I did check Manual of Planes, Planar Handbook, Unearthed Arcana and Complete Arcane (added with the base 3 source books) for such, but there's none. We're not big on making non-lore custom spells.



Lastly, a lot of spells work differently in the planes... a lot of them. We won't change only few if we do change, we'll add all the planar changes, but it is not major issue by any means and can wait
*Mr_Otyugh
Posts: 2242
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Posted by *Mr_Otyugh »


Until you're literally incapable of casting etherealness because of made game mechanics, the spells will work as they work in game.

And we don't only pick one or two spells from list of hundreds that should or shouldn't work in different planes and places ;) so before you just say "disable etherealness in Sigil", it would mean a lot more of spells also.
wrote:Conjuration. (Orb spells) Are summoned directly from their parent plane.
All magic comes from the planes. When you heal someone you draw power from Positive Energy Plane, when you cast fireball, you draw power from Elemental Plane of Fire.
*The_Tarot
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Posted by *The_Tarot »


Mr_Otyugh,Jun 28 2010 wrote:Until you're literally incapable of casting etherealness because of made game mechanics, the spells will work as they work in game.

And we don't only pick one or two spells from list of hundreds that should or shouldn't work in different planes and places ;) so before you just say "disable etherealness in Sigil", it would mean a lot more of spells also.
Oh, I'm definitely not saying "Disable Etherealness" Dom loves his escape route when no shadows are available to hide in. I'm just tired of things turning OOC unnecessarily, with an "agreeable" middle-ground that supports the spells of NWN2, as well as the existance of Ethereal creatures already in Sigil. ;)
*Vagrant
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Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Posted by *Vagrant »


Then 100% spell failure chance in Sigil.

Fighter power!
*xeneize
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Posted by *xeneize »


huh... I recommend to just add to the rules what spells don't work within Sigil and that's ALL, punish those that cast it, with xp loss or something :mellow:
*Mr_Otyugh
Posts: 2242
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Posted by *Mr_Otyugh »


So lets just make DMs have even more in their table to do? ;P This really is a non-issue to begin with so I'll just put it, as simply as, no.

As I mentioned earlier: Until you cannot game mechanically cast it, it works as it is. Before that, just have to live with it. I'm not fan of making inconvenient rules to enforce and explain to everyone, I rather it be handled by game mechanics on this kind of things, but until we make game mechanics it'll work as it is now.
*xeneize
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Posted by *xeneize »


guess people can just ignore such spells, problem is when you are auto griefed by some player in etherealness. That's when things turn annoying. Anyhow.


*Ceremorph
Posts: 1125
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Posted by *Ceremorph »


wrote:guess people can just ignore such spells, problem is when you are auto griefed by some player in etherealness. That's when things turn annoying. Anyhow.
That's when your weapon master walks up to them and takes advantage of the whirlwind attack glitch!

But seriously:

There really is no reason to go OOC and start rules-lawyering in the middle of RP simply because you don't agree with what someone is doing. It breaks from the immersion, and also tends to annoy any onlookers (who will also, of course, have to add their own two cents). The best bet is to either continue the RP or else leave the situation if it truly bothers you, much the same as if you don't want PvP and someone else does.

Then, when the RP is actually over, would be the time to discuss it with the other person OOC via tells. Not via shouted brackets in the middle of the bazaar.

Also, if you're actually being griefed then it doesn't matter if there was a rule against etherealness, because there is a rule against griefing. Contact a DM if one is on, or send a PM to one of us here in the forums.
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