Natural Spell, Shapechange&truesight.

[*WhenWizardsWar]

I know this is probably going to turn into a can of worms most servers dont like to open but....

First question:Does Truesight peirce Shapechange/polymorph and reveal the man or woman beneath it?.

Truesight spots hidden and invisible creatures as well as illusions, which shapechange is not in anyway shape or form. If one shape changes they are not hiding, or invisible they are essentially transmuteing into said form.


Secondly and this is where the debate comes out.

Natural spell allows one to cast spells while in animal form.

If someone can figure out how to use an animals body, gestures and vocal cords to cast spells (which is essentially what they are doing) should they then not be able to cast spells while in say giant, vrock or any of the other shapechange forms? Most of the forms have an actual language and can speak and move their hands and among the REAL versions of those characters they are known to have spellcasters.

The problem is, when you shapechange bioware removes the ability to access your spells unless you open the quick cast menu.

Alot of servers strictly frown upon shapechanged forms (which often have access to magic and spells in the real versions) useing the Quickcast feature to cast spells even though it makes almost no sense not to.

Infact if such a thing were allowed it would actually be a great spell to use both for RP, utility and combat purposes and most people would activly use it.

As it is now im willing to be its an under used spell because aside from the gobs of health and prodigious strength most of them have there are very very few perks to shapechangeing.




Ok.....aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand.......discuss! But keep it clean and above the belt!

[*Fell Star]

Truesight, according to D20SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueseeing.htm), which is pulled directly from source material:

True Seeing
Divination
Level: Clr 5, Drd 7, Knowledge 5, Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.

True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance.

Material Component
An ointment for the eyes that costs 250 gp and is made from mushroom powder, saffron, and fat.





Personal note: Technically, people using this spell would be walking around with goop on their eyes. I imagine it's not that attractive, but I would love to see people roleplay it accurately.

[*Tildryn]

I know this is probably going to turn into a can of worms most servers dont like to open but....

First question:Does Truesight peirce Shapechange/polymorph and reveal the man or woman beneath it?.

Truesight spots hidden and invisible creatures as well as illusions, which shapechange is not in anyway shape or form. If one shape changes they are not hiding, or invisible they are essentially transmuteing into said form.


Secondly and this is where the debate comes out.

Natural spell allows one to cast spells while in animal form.

If someone can figure out how to use an animals body, gestures and vocal cords to cast spells (which is essentially what they are doing) should they then not be able to cast spells while in say giant, vrock or any of the other shapechange forms? Most of the forms have an actual language and can speak and move their hands and among the REAL versions of those characters they are known to have spellcasters.

The problem is, when you shapechange bioware removes the ability to access your spells unless you open the quick cast menu.

Alot of servers strictly frown upon shapechanged forms (which often have access to magic and spells in the real versions) useing the Quickcast feature to cast spells even though it makes almost no sense not to.

Infact if such a thing were allowed it would actually be a great spell to use both for RP, utility and combat purposes and most people would activly use it.

As it is now im willing to be its an under used spell because aside from the gobs of health and prodigious strength most of them have there are very very few perks to shapechangeing.




Ok.....aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand.......discuss! But keep it clean and above the belt!

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueseeing.htm

True Seeing does not reveal hiding creatures. It has no effect on stealth whatsoever.

It does, however, reveal to the user the true form of polymorphed creatures.

Pretty clear-cut on that point. :)

[*Lost and not Found]

With your first question: Hmn...
If we go by what has been written in here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueseeing.htm
True Seeing indeed allows the caster to to see through different acts of transmutation. However, just because someone can see a "true form" of something doesn't, for example, mean that the polymorphed human Wizard should change his shape back to his human form.

I do not think there is an ingame representation of how the spell operates according to the PnP, but I would not be against it if someone would decide to figure out the true-form of that "elusive" horned devil through the use of True Seeing.


As for the second; I think we've already had several topics about this part of this topic. About eight of them, mostly started by me.

Anyhow, the staff approach thus far has been the following: Both yes, and no.

1) If your new "form" is capable of speech, and has wiggly-fingers or appropriate appendixes, feel free to use the "quickcast bug".

2) If your "form" is only capable of speech, feel free to use stilled spells from the quickcast menu.

3) If your form has only wiggly fingers or appropriate appendixes, feel free to use the silenced spells from the quickcast menu.

4) If neither apply, casting spells from the quickcast window is abusing a bug.

Edit:
5) If your spell is both stilled and silenced, you should be able to cast it regardless of your shape.

[*Product of Void]

hmm my way of thinking

1. if they are having fun and not ruining anyone else's....right on.

2. Ignore the floating names as much as possible use them for reference. Even though my character has an iq of 300 can gate in balors, and bend magic to his whelm. Unless he sees them shift its just another mutt, troll, what ever. To be treated as such. He does know such people exist that can change form but its more fun for both parties if treated as such.

yeah there is an exploit to caste while shifted, some will use it some will not. I only see an issue if the player is a jerk, not if the build does not meet my specs or view of rp.

[*Railgun_Index]

Unless you are planning on playing a druid who is always shifted (had a wolf who was a the 'animal companion' of a ranger character who did that.) It doesn't really matter if someone knows what you are.

It's not like them knowing that dragon isn't really a dragon is gonna keep your dragon claw from going up their ***. :P

[*Product of Void]

most folk here work well with others so if someone says something a quick tell might adjust rp.

Player 1 : oh look its Scrappy as a badger
player 2 tell : you did not see him shift please treat as a badger.
Player 1. //scratch that did not know was shifted
Player 1: ...eep a badger anyone have some jerkie to throw at it to make it go away?

[*MadPorthos]

A thought about Fellstar's personal note...


Personal note: Technically, people using this spell would be walking around with goop on their eyes. I imagine it's not that attractive, but I would love to see people roleplay it accurately.


--------------------

Thinking about this, mascara could be this goop as you describe it. Eye rouge. Makeup, heck even those black greasy marks that american footballers put under thier eyes to cut down glare, or soldiers put on to do that same thing.

There's ways of applying said components without it looking like someone put a dollop of glop blocking your sight.

[*WhenWizardsWar]

Ahh ok i havent read the pnp truesight in forever.


So, polymorph or transmuted things....

So technially that means wildshapes too no?

Because your not "changeing" or transmuteing into something you are BECOMING that form.


???

[*Tildryn]

Ahh ok i havent read the pnp truesight in forever.


So, polymorph or transmuted things....

So technially that means wildshapes too no?

Because your not "changeing" or transmuteing into something you are BECOMING that form.


???

Wildshape counts as "polymorphed, changed or transmuted things".